This is a rush transcript from "MediaBuzz," October 10, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
HOWARD KURTZ, FOX NEWS HOST (on camera): We've all known for years really how Facebook has enabled, embraced, encouraged and merchandised the most destructive forces in society. But Frances Haugen has changed the debate with a savvy media rollout, leaking to "The Wall Street Journal" going on "60 Minutes" testifying on the Hill.
Why is she driving so much coverage? The press loves leaks, adores whistleblowers, and as a former official, she brings insider cred (ph). Haugen is the Daniel Ellsberg of the digital world, a camera radio (ph) accuser whose presence personalizes the fierce criticism of Mark Zuckerberg.
And the media are highly receptive to her attacks after years of frustration in both conservative and liberal media circles over bias, misinformation, the spread of hate and anger, the corrosive effects of Instagram on teenage girls and years of Zuckerberg apologies and belated promises to do better. Haugen is peddling a message that news outlets are anxious to amplify.
But Here's the thing. These aren't just her opinions. It's the tens of thousands of internal documents, proving that the Facebook brass (ph) is fully aware of its increasingly toxic impact and hasn't done much about it that provides the story's power. You may or may not like, for instance, Haugen but she has got the goods. And the challenge for pundits and politicians alike is to keep after perhaps the world's most powerful media company.
I'm Howard Kurtz and this is "Media Buzz"
The story kicked into overdrive when the Facebook whistleblower revealed her identity to "CBS" Scott Pelley.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANCES HAUGEN, FACEBOOK WHISTLEBLOWER: The version of Facebook that exists today is tearing our societies apart and causing ethnic violence around the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): Haugen's testimony drew praise from Republican and Democratic senators alike.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: You are a 21st century American hero.
UNKNOWN: Thanks for coming forward and thanks for coming forward in the manner that you want to have positive change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): Most pundits are embracing her indictment of Facebook but there is substantial suspicion on the right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
There's a widespread understanding and particularly around the issue of kids that this -- that this is an extraordinarily harmful company.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: You think that this is any less pernicious than cigarettes? It's everywhere. It's everything. Look at your kids. Look at your life.
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC ANCHOR: Facebook would face with choices between getting more eyeballs on its platform, more time spent on the platform or protecting society. Always chooses the eyeballs and the money.
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: Republicans may be walking straight into a trap. The left's real beef with Facebook has nothing to do with the children. The kids are on TikTok, aren't they? The left doesn't like Facebook because Facebook has refused to suppress all conservative speech. That's it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Zuckerberg broke his silence with a Facebook post, we care deeply about issues like safety, and well-being and mental health. It's difficult to see coverage that misrepresents our work and our motives. I think most of us just don't recognize the false picture of the company that is being painted.
Joining us now to analyze the coverage, Ben Domenech, founder and publisher of "The Federalist" and Mara Liasson, NPR's national political reporter. Both are Fox News contributors. Ben, nice to have you on the set. Seems like liberals as well as conservative media by and large are so fed up with Facebook and its endless excuses that they're welcoming Frances Haugen's testimony.
BEN DOMENECH, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR, FOUNDER AND PUBLISHER OF THE FEDERALIST: Well, I view Frances Haugen's testimony as trying to actually do something that Facebook wants. Facebook really has been, you know, running all these ads, talking about updating tech regulations, people have probably seen them for the past several months. They've absolutely been engaged in the idea that new regulations are something that they would welcome. Those regulations are something that they can afford to bear as the behemoth that they are.
KURTZ: Other companies may not.
DOMENECH: Exactly. Smaller companies, challengers may not be able to bear such things. The flip of that, of course, is what they want to head off (ph) is this anti-trust push that's been happening, that's been supported by not just Elizabeth Warren but some people on the right like Josh Hawley as well, designed to essentially break up the company, to turn -- to say that it's unacceptable for Facebook to own Instagram and WhatsApp and all these other aspects of technology that we use.
These are two different paths and they're different in significant respects. I think Haugen's testimony obviously is newsworthy. It's certainly, you know, the documents that she leaked are newsworthy.
KURTZ: Yeah.
DOMENECH: But I also think that people shouldn't view her necessarily as being against what Facebook actually wants to achieve, which is a regulatory burden that they would actually welcome because it squashes their potential competitors.
KURTZ: That's a fascinating take. Mara, Frances Haugen's rollout may have been a little slick, the big reveal on "60 Minutes" and all of that. But while the media love to focus on a single heroine, I would say her importance (INAUDIBLE) documents showings, Zuckerberg knows, his whole team knows, Sheryl Sandberg knows, but the spread of toxicity and things like the pain for teenage girls on Instagram.
MARA LIASSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER FOR NPR: Yeah. Look, I thought that this is a very complex problen and it's why the right and the left commentators don't fall into neat categories on this. But Frances Haugen is saying something that people have been saying for years, that Facebook's algorithm, the algorithm of most social media, is to keep you online as long as possible so they can sell you more ads.
KURTZ: Keep you addicted.
LIASSON: And extreme content keeps you online. But, like you said, she has thousands and thousands of documents. The debate about what to do about it, do you break Facebook up so you have 10 Facebooks doing all the same thing? I don't know if that solves the problem. Do you regulate Facebook? Who does the regulating? What are can consequences of that? I mean, it's really complicated. I don't think there's a consensus about what needs to be done --
KURTZ: Yeah.
LIASSON: -- but there does seem to be a bipartisan consensus that right now Facebook and a lot of social media are bad actors and are exacerbating things in society that increase division.
KURTZ: Well, Ben, Haugen wants Congress to do the regulating but, of course, there are different views on Capitol Hill. Look, some of the conservative media are focusing on the fact that Frances Haugen gave money to AOC and other Democrats, that she works liberal firm. Let's say she is really liberal. So what? Most Democrats don't like Facebook either. You mentioned Elizabeth Warren as an FTC and trust (ph) investigation. So how much does her own personal motivation matter?
DOMENECH: I think it only matters to the degree that it indicates her ideological preferences in this moment might be for Facebook to crack down more on -- quote, unquote -- "misinformation from the right" And that her own preferences if applied could potentially skew things in a particular direction. She was obviously --
KURTZ: Why only misinformation from the right? Why not crack down on misinformation from the left?
DOMENECH: Because she was part of the same team that obviously cracked down on the Hunter Biden story in the days approaching the November election of last year. You obviously had a crackdown across Facebook and Twitter --
KURTZ: Twitter especially.
DOMENECH: -- that was trying to silence the story. Twitter even took the step of preventing people from sending it in direct messages.
KURTZ: Yeah.
DOMENECH: So that kind of indicates, I think, to right center observers this woman just wants to silence us, she wants to silence people who are sharing things that she doesn't like from an ideological perspective. Whether that's true or not --
KURTZ: Yeah.
DOMENECH: -- the point that Mara made is very important, which is that who does the deciding in this situation? That's a critical question. I think that's one of the reasons why you're going to, I believe, hear increasing calls for breaking up these companies and not having them have so much concentrated power to decide what we are allowed to talk about.
KURTZ: Yeah, it's immense power. Then the question is are you penalizing success? So, let's say, Mara, that Frances Haugen becomes a cable news fixture, she becomes a bit of a celebrity, does that undermine her criticism? She does obviously have a pretty deep knowledge of how these tech companies work.
LIASSON: No. I mean, I just keep on going back tour opening segment. The purpose -- her purpose was to reveal the documents and to show that Facebook knew about this. What Frances Haugen thinks should be the correct solution, who cares? Congress is going to decide what to do about Facebook or not to do anything at all.
I mean, she's just a messenger. The thing that made her story important is that she came with, as you said, the goods. What she said is not new. People have been talking about this for years. But all of a sudden, now we know that Facebook knew about it too and acknowledged it.
KURTZ: Right. Look, there is an argument that Facebook wants to be able to engage in more what you would call censorship of content that liberals find unacceptable. After all, it is the social network that ban and continue to ban Donald Trump.
But if that's true and you say that they're almost like unintentional allies even though is Haugen is out there ripping Facebook and Zuckerberg, why does Facebook need this dog in pony show? Why don't they just continue to tweet the algorithm as they see fit, the way that Zuckerberg wants, the way that maximizes traffic?
DOMENECH: I think that's what they're going to continue doing. And I think in the absence --
KURTZ: All of this uproar.
DOMENECH: Through all of this uproar, I think that that is going to continue. And you're going to continue to see the kind of stories that we've seen repeatedly happened over the past several years, even outside of political actors themselves where people are often accidentally being shadow banned or accidentally having their posts suspended, accidentally having situations where the things that they're sharing are being silenced.
I mean, I look at humorous site like "The Babylon Bee" which insults often the biases of the left. They were open about the fact that despite having incredible numbers in terms of their followers, they will share posts and have single digits of people who are actually able to see it.
KURTZ: Right.
DOMENECH: And that's the kind of situation that says, you know, we don't believe this is happening by accident. We believe that there's someone who is -- wherever they are in the hierarchy who is turning a dial or pulling a lever --
KURTZ: Yeah.
DOMENECH: -- that keeps people who agree with us from seeing the content we're generating.
KURTZ: Well, Zuckerberg admits it's a left-leaning company. Remember, he went through the exercise of meeting with conservatives to try to fix that. Obviously, he didn't fix it. By the way, Mara, that five-hour outage the other day did not help. You think the world would come to an end with all the coverage that that got.
LIASSON: Yeah.
KURTZ: But look, what about Mark Zuckerberg and his shift? Usually in this past lapse, going back to 2016, Russian disinformation and all that, he apologizes, he promises to do better, they roll out --
LIASSON: Yeah.
KURTZ: -- you know, ten-point plan. But now, he seems to be done apologizing. He is putting out defiant statements.
LIASSON: Yeah.
KURTZ: Blaming the press. What do you think of his tactic to say, oh, the coverage, we just don't recognize this company?
LIASSON: Yeah. I mean, he's pushing back, he's being defensive. I don't know who his friends are. I mean, who is going to come to the defense of Facebook? It seems like Facebook itself is in a defensive crouch. There have been reports about Facebook is kind of over-the-hill, it's on the decline. But this is a company that has tremendous issues to face and we've kind of never seen Mark Zuckerberg actually face them.
KURTZ: So, the political world is defriending Facebook. Is that what's going on here?
LIASSON: Maybe.
KURTZ: Ben --
DOMENECH: I think certainly that that's -- there is something like that going on. But in the larger perspective, all of these different Silicon Valley companies, they were all started with some kind of ambition to make the world a better place.
KURTZ: Don't be evil.
DOMENECH: Exactly. And I think that many of them, including Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, are grappling with the fact that that may not have been what they've actually achieved.
KURTZ: Right. And that's where we are now, which is, you know, Zuckerberg and these people, they were heroes in the start of this. You know, the guy starts Facebook in his Harvard dorm room and now, of course, the world gets more complicated.
He insists for years and years, we're not a media company, people can say what they want and they, of course, try to crack down on some offensive hateful speech. Inevitably, there are complaints, especially from the right, that you're doing it in a biased way.
Let me get a break here. When we come back, the coverage of Donald Trump heats up as Mike Pence accuses the media of misusing the January 6th tragedy. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ (on camera): As the media boosts their coverage of the House probe into what happened on January 6th, Donald Trump is downplaying the Capitol riot in favor of his claims of election fraud.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (voice-over): The insurrection took place on November 3rd. That was the insurrection, when they rigged the election. The big insurrection, the real insurrection, the really, the crime of the century.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): And his vice president whose life was in danger on that day when he refused to try to block the Electoral College results is pointing at the press.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know the media wants to distract from the Biden administration's failed agenda by focusing on one day in January. They want to use that one day to try and demean the character and intentions of 74 million Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): Ben Domenech, let's start with Donald Trump. The media rather like focusing on January 6th, I think, but isn't the former president helping them do that very thing by constantly seeming to minimize the riots and now saying election day was the real election.
DOMENECH: I think that Republicans would very much like to see former President Trump move on from this idea that the election was stolen from him. But I don't think that that's going to happen. I don't think there's any indication that that's going to happen.
KURTZ: Lindsey Graham and others have told him.
DOMENECH: Yes. I think he's been told directly by a number of his allies politically, basically saying, you know, give it up, move on. Now, I will say that one of the factors, I think, going on here is that there's still a lot of people in his orbit who want him to continue to do this.
We saw just this week Steve Bannon on his own podcast radio show saying that Trump will be reinstituted by 2022, if not before. You know, which is obviously absurd and it's not going to happen.
But at the same time, I think, you know, he has a lot of people in his ear who actually do want him to be a significant political force and understand that if he makes it all about him and all about his own gripes, that's something that's going to always prevent him from having the effect on potentially not just 2022 but 2024 that they would like him to have.
KURTZ: Yeah, that certainly seems to be the GOP, at least privately.
LIASSON: Yeah.
KURTZ: Mara, when Trump does these things, election day was the real insurrection, it in effect forces journalists to say no, there is no proof of widespread fraud.
LIASSON: Yeah.
KURTZ: Your own Justice Department couldn't find any. By the way, the Senate Judiciary Committee just issued a report the other day detailing how Justice Department officials threatened to resign if the then president didn't stop pressuring them to overturn the election. So it seems to me Trump is getting the coverage he wants and maybe the media kind of like this because it is better for ratings than talking about debt ceiling.
LIASSON: Well, Donald Trump is always good for ratings. But there's no doubt the Democrats want to make the 2022 election about Donald Trump. They would like him to be on the ballot, figuratively. And he's helping them because he keeps on -- he's the number one Republican. As long as he's out there keeping alive this idea that he's going to run in 2024, he maintains his position as the most important Republican in the world.
And the new litmus test for being loyal to Donald Trump is agreeing with this lie that the election was stolen from him and now he's made it even more advanced, saying that January 6th was kind of a patriotic protest and November 3rd was the real insurrection.
Everyone has to agree with that if they're going to have a future in the Republican Party. You saw Chuck Grassley appear with Trump at that rally in Iowa last night.
KURTZ: Yeah.
LIASSON: Chuck Grassley had some pretty harsh words for Donald Trump --
KURTZ: Well --
LIASSON: -- after January 6th, but he's running for re-election and there's only one choice for him.
KURTZ: They have to either agree or at least not openly challenge it. All right. Mike Pence, obviously, Ben, is trying to thread the needle. He has his own aspirations for 2024 if Trump doesn't run. The media are really denigrating him because at the riot, as we all saw, we had these protesters with the news chanting, hang Mike Pence, and he's now saying it's just one day in January and blaming the press for what he sees as an excessive focus on that one day.
DOMENECH: Well, I think that Pence is accurately diagnosing the fact that the press would like to make that one day the entirety of any objection to the way that this election was run.
I think, of course, that Pence would be better much better off and Trump himself would be better off basically saying the rules that were put in place in the past year led to a lot of questions about voting, a lot of questions about accuracy, mail-in voting during a pandemic, all of these other things that have been brought up that I think are certainly questions that people can raise without saying that an election was stolen.
But the funny thing here is we're talking in the week after Terry McAuliffe, who is running for governor in Virginia, was asked about his own statements about both the 2000 and 2004 election --
KURTZ: Yeah.
DOMENECH: -- and he didn't back off it either. So, a lot of these partisans, Howie, they really do get into their dedication here when it comes to the idea that anything that they lose is stolen from them.
KURTZ: They do get dug in. Mara, do you buy Mike Pence's argument, by the way, saying one day in January, kind of like calling 9/11 one day in September? It was a pretty tragic day.
LIASSON: It was a tragic day. And also --
KURTZ: Let me just finish my question. Do you buy his argument that the media are doing this deliberately to distract or deflect from Joe Biden's considerable woes?
LIASSON: No. I think there has been tremendous coverage of Joe Biden's considerable woes. I mean, I think the media has been, you know, like a dog with a bone on that. It would be hard to see how they're ignoring all the things that have happened: Afghanistan, the debt ceiling, you know, the hang-up with his agenda.
But the other thing that Mike Pence said, which I think is absolutely false, is to say that by focusing on January 6th, the most violent insurrection against the Capitol in over 100 years, somehow is denigrating the 74 million people who voted for Donald Trump.
KURTZ: Yeah.
LIASSON: That's just completely false.
KURTZ: Right. They had completely nothing to do with it.
LIASSON: No. Nor did anybody say they did.
KURTZ: Well, except for a few radicals maybe. I got to go. Mara Liasson, Ben Domenech, thanks very much for joining us this Sunday.
Up next, as Congress kicks the can again on the debt ceiling crisis, well, conservative and liberal pundits are pounding on Mitch McConnell. More in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ (on camera): The ominous headlines all said America was facing a possible financial default until Mitch McConnell, who had refused to provide any republican votes to lift the debt ceiling, made a short-term deal, pushing the problem off until this December.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST: And you think that's a game, Donald Trump? You think that's a game, Lindsey Graham? What's wrong with you? It's a game? No, you're playing with people's lives.
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Mitch McConnell tonight, you need to stop being a swamp creature, and if you want to be a conservative leader, you need to start acting like one. And if you can't do that, you really do need to step aside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): Joining us now is Mike Emanuel, Fox's chief Washington correspondent. And Mike, this began with a pretty raw political move by Mitch McConnell. As you see, he is getting it from Sean Hannity, he is getting it from liberal pundits. Look, don't the media punish anybody who agrees to the slightest compromise, even though in this case McConnell doing the fiscally responsible thing?
MIKE EMANUEL, FOX NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: That is kind of the environment right now, you're either in one camp or the other. And so, if you come together, then that kind of defeats, I don't know, the narrative or the ongoing battle, the war of words.
And so, look, Mitch McConnell, my understanding is, was talking to financial people who said, you know, don't spook the markets. If so, you'll be blamed for it.
KURTZ: You don't have to wait for the day of the default. He did kind of blink after President Biden called him out in a speech. But it is just so striking to me because, you know, look at the stakes here. You can spook the markets, you can lead to a government shutdown, you could lead to a national default, all of which has real consequences, not just a game.
EMANUEL: Plus, one of Mitch McConnell's top priorities right now is to do nothing to jeopardize the midterm elections.
KURTZ: Yeah.
EMANUEL: You look at the Democrats right now. They're struggling on a variety of fronts from the border to Afghanistan --
KURTZ: Absolutely.
EMANUEL: -- to inflation and so on. And so basically stay out of the way and see what the Democrats do and then by the midterms, you may be rewarded or maybe majority leader all over again.
KURTZ (on camera): Here is another Mitch McConnell critic. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP (voice-over): Mitch is not the guy. He's not the right guy. He's not doing the job. He gave them a lifeline.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): Look, the media love Republican in-fighting, particularly love when Donald Trump goes after Mitch McConnell. They used to be allies. Now, obviously, it is a very bitter relationship.
EMANUEL: Yeah, no love lost there at this point in the relationship. So, I'm not surprised to hear the former president's comments about McConnell. Look, McConnell at this point wants to make sure that the people in the room with him, the Republican senators, are still behind him.
There are some hurt feelings because some thought, like, this didn't work as well as they had hoped. But he's still the leader. If he wins back the majority in 2022, well, then they're all going to be a lot happier on Capitol Hill in terms of the Republicans.
KURTZ: Yeah. But he's a leader of some Republicans who obviously don't want to play this debt ceiling game. And also, you know, Trump is the leader of the entire party and has a very different view.
All right. The Democrats -- let's take a look at video. It's really powerful. Chuck Schumer was giving a speech and Joe Manchin behind him -- just take a look. He's just beside himself. He later called Schumer's remarks inappropriate. It was right after the deal with McConnell, and Schumer was kind of ripping McConnell and the Republicans. So, does the press enjoy covering Democratic in-fighting as much as on the GOP side?
EMANUEL: I don't think so. But, you know, Joe Manchin represents a ruby red state in West Virginia. He talks to Republicans all the time. They are his constituents in many regards.
KURTZ: Right.
EMANUEL: And he also talks to Republican senators. And so I think --
KURTZ: Like McConnell.
EMANUEL: Yeah. And once the crisis was over, he's like, what are you doing, you know, spiking the ball. There are other fights ahead. We're going to be back at the debt ceiling deal again in December. And so, I think that's why he thought it was so inappropriate.
KURTZ: Listen, when you go like this, I don't think there's much doubt even if you use words like inappropriate as to where you stand. Always good to have you here, Mike Emanuel. Thanks so much.
Next on Media Buzz" Nikki Haley collapsed back at a CNN anchor who denounced here. And later, the Monica Lewinsky TV series drawing lots of flak.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ (on camera): With President Biden sliding in the polls the media is paying more attention to possible Republican challengers who aren't named Trump.
CNN's Brianna Keilar took on Nikki Haley after a speech that the anchor viewed as backing off Haley's past criticism of Trump and her own record against racism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT: She even tried to go to Mar-a- Lago to kiss the ring but was reportedly denied. Now she may be right that history will judge Donald Trump harshly but Nikki Haley will not because she's too busy trying to ride his coat tails.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): The former South Carolina governor and U.N. ambassador who of course is of Indian descent hit back on Fox News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIKKI HALEY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: It's amazing to me how the liberal media can't stand it when someone black or brown happens to talk about the fact that America is the best country in the world. And that same state elected me as the first female and first minority governor and you can't say that we're a racist country. You just can't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Joining us now, Robby Soave of Reason magazine and author of the book, "Tech Panic: Why We shouldn't Fear Facebook and the Future," and Richard Fowler, the radio talk show host and Fox news contributor.
Robby, what do you make of the attempt on CNN to take down Nikki Haley for the sin of not denouncing the president she worked for?
ROBBY SOAVE, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, REASON.COM: Right. I think it was a pretty lame attack obviously but that said, Nikki Haley has I think adopted a variety of positions, re Trump. I think that's a fair accusation. I don't think she put it the right way. Of course, that's true of a lot of Republican officials. That's true of the broader conservative movement. The question is --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: So you think -- you think Brianna Keilar had a point in criticizing Haley?
SOAVE: Yes. But every -- lots of people who have reversed themselves about Trump. The key with Haley is, is she on board with the Trump agenda. I take her to be more of a true believer in the, especially on foreign policy of the older more Bush-esque kind of neo conservative foreign policy. And that's really an anathema to Trump voters.
So, do they trust her on that? I think that's actually what matters about whether she changed her stance on Trump which is something everyone in the Republican Party did. Has she changed her views? That's what the Trump supporters are going to want to know.
KURTZ: You know, when I listen to Nikki Haley's response, I thought why is she making this about race. But on the other hand, race was at the core of Brianna Keilar's attack that this was the governor, the former governor who took down the confederate flag at the South Carolina Capitol, state capitol but somehow it's her fault that the confederate flag was carried into the capitol, the U.S. Capitol that is on January 6th.
RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks for having me, Howie. I think there's an interesting dilemma happening both in the media and in American politics. Right? I think more and more you see anchors giving these longer monologues in a search for truth.
And with that being said, you have politicians like Nikki Haley and others who to Robby's point, while they try to find truth, they're also trying to get their political gears in motion.
And I think what we're seeing with Nikki Haley, is you had a candidate or an individual that once thought that Trump was great, then she thought Trump was bad, now she's sort of having this consternation with Trump even though she worked for him. And I think so it's right for Brianna Keilar to call it out.
The question that I don't quite understand is why has Nikki Haley is sort of delved into this conversation around race. What -- when actually what -- what actually makes America great is the fact that we can have this profound and provocative conversations about race and make changes and policy decisions like the one she made in South Carolina to take down that confederate flag --
KURTZ: Right.
FOWLER: -- in the pursuit to make America a more just and equal place.
KURTZ: Well there is a broader media assault going on here. And this is for Robby. New York magazine, I'm quoting from a piece, Trump's Republican Party is an authoritarian project. For the time being there is no form of Republican politics that is consistent with democracy. So, in other words, unless you attack Trump, everyone in the party is complicit.
SOAVE: Yes. Well, I mean, the media's view on this is far outside the mainstream voter. Especially, I mean, that's why it goes -- that's why it goes to race so often in the mainstream media. They want to talk about race in a way that even -- even moderate Democratic voters don't agree.
They're -- they're, you know, changing Latino people to Latinx, that kind of thing. The media -- the media has this kind of far progressive approach to all these issues and to, you know, demonizing Trump people and making them out to be the worst people on earth when that's -- that's just -- and then that makes them I think not understand these voters very well. And then, you know, they're monologuing to themselves, they're talking from a far-left position that only the media is listening.
KURTZ: Well, maybe their viewers like that particular position. Richard, I think it's fair for journalists to ask any Republican office holder or candidate, do you believe the election was stolen from Trump. Chris Wallace did that this morning with Congressman Steve Scalise, three times he asked, he didn't get a direct answer.
But the liberal media argument you hear this a lot from MSNBC host is, there's a formula that tries to tie any Republican to the capitol riot.
FOWLER: Well, and I think that, therein lies the distinction. Right. Because you can't tie every Republican to what happened on January 6th.
KURTZ: Exactly.
FOWLER: But what you can tie a Republican to is whether or not they agree with the president's line of reasoning. And the president's line of reasoning hasn't stood up a day in court, really has no evidence to back it that says somehow, some way this election was stolen from him and there was massive voter -- massive voter fraud taking place.
And so when Republicans attach to that line, whether they want more audits in their state or they're saying that there's a problem with our current election system as it is, all of those speak to the fact that you're trying to weaken our democracy and there goes -- therein lies the imbalance.
KURTZ: All right. Let me use our remaining time to come back to the lead story, that is of course Facebook, Robby. Looking at the blitz over whistleblower Frances Haugen, how fairly can the media report on social media such as the seemingly all-powerful Facebook?
SOAVE: They can't. And this is something people really have to keep in mind. I don't think it's talked about enough. The mainstream media -- social media is a rival with the mainstream media. The mainstream media is the one, the people in the New York Times, Washington Post, newspapers, some other television channels, they are the most anti-Facebook at all -- of all because they see Facebook as a rival that took away their monopoly on what you get to say and discuss and hear about.
So, they want this company destroyed most of all. That's why I think a lot of the things the whistleblower talked about, they are problems but the media is amplifying them in a very hyperbolic way because they make -- they want to make it sound it worse than it is so the government destroys their rival and they can go back to being in charge.
And people should be weary of that dynamic. There is -- this is an industry rivalry that I think often does not, you know, make the headlines. Because the people make the headlines don't want to acknowledge that.
KURTZ: Yes. Well, Facebook has stolen the lunch of a lot of the mainstream media. But of course, they also use Facebook to publicize and get clicks for their stories. So, Richard, now that Mark Zuckerberg is taking a more defiant stance against the press, I have this question. Has he created a sort of a Frankenstein monster that even he and his fellow tech moguls can't control?
FOWLER: That's exactly what they've created, Howie. And I think what makes this problem even worse is in the attempt, in the media's attempt to provide accountability to social media platforms exist in the absence of the federal government and our lawmakers, both Democrats and Republicans who have expressed consternation about social media but neither seems to be willing or ready to actually provide some regulatory reforms to ensure that social media doesn't get away with what they're currently getting away with.
KURTZ: I think that might be changing but we'll see if they have the courage given that both sides get a lot of contribution especially the Democrats from these tech companies.
Robby Soave, Richard Fowler, good to see you both. Thanks so much. After the break, Julie Banderas on why Monica Lewinsky's "Impeachment" series is drawing more flak and fewer viewers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Linda, please. Please, this is my real life we're talking about. And I'm scared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): The FX series impeachment portrays Monica Lewinsky sympathetically. She is, after all one of the producers. But reviews have been rough and ratings have dropped by nearly half to just over half a million viewers even as the main subject promotes it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MONICA LEWINSKY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE AIDE: The consequences were way worse for me --
UNKNOWN: Definitely.
LEWINSKY: -- than they were for the most powerful man in the world and some of the other people in the scandal, all 20 years older than me, is insane.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: But Clinton accuser Paula Jones said the show never got in touch with her and that some of the material involving her is just made up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Bill Clinton presented himself to me in a very unprofessional manner.
PAULA JONES, CLINTON ACCUSER: How can I portray somebody accurately if they don't even call them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): Joining us from New York is Julie Banderas, Fox News anchor.
Look, Monica Lewinsky haven't been demonized for so long has every right to tell her story. But given some of the reviews, The Guardian comparing the series to an SNL skit, do you think the magnitude of the scandal and a Bill Clinton's lying have been lost in this melodrama.
JULIE BANDERAS, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I think so. But I just want to touch on something that Paula Jones just said about how the series didn't contact her.
KURTZ: Yes.
BANDERAS: Fox actually did a documentary on Fox Nation, OK? We reached out to her and the executive producer, is a very close friend of mine, so I remember when she went through this, it was a nightmare she couldn't get Monica and then she tried Paula Jones multiple times. She booked her. And she kept canceling and she flaked in the end.
So, she wasn't looking to get her side of the story out there. So, it's interesting that now she's critiquing Monica.
KURTZ: Interesting.
BANDERAS: I just have to say this, though. People are not watching this because essentially, they don't want to give credence to Paula Jones and her story. Because obviously, the left is afraid of canceling Bill. I mean, Bill Clinton has certainly go, you know, remained unscathed after all of this which is still in this day and age and the Me Too movement, if you want to call it that, shocking.
I also think it's interesting that Paula Jones said that she has nothing to do with the Me Too movement or better yet, the Me Too movement has nothing to do with me. But yet, she won't talk to Fox News when we did a very, very lengthy documentary and we covered every single angle, both sides. She didn't want to say a word.
KURTZ: Yes. You know, it's fascinating. I don't know if the series got a bigger rating, would that make us closer to canceling Bill Clinton. I mean, it's true, he's kind of revered as an elder political statesman in the Democrat Party --
BANDERAS: Right.
KURTZ: -- but obviously he took a lot more heat once the Me Too movement cast what happened 20 years ago in a very different light. Look, Monica Lewinsky is also out there promoting an HBO max documentary, it's called 15 Minutes of Shame, saying, and this is true, she was the first to be nationally humiliated by the internet when the internet was more in its infancy. And then she interviews other people --
BANDERAS: Right.
KURTZ: -- who were savaged by social media mob, some of them made mistakes. But I guess my counter to that is, some people deserve to be shamed for things that they did.
BANDERAS: I agree. And I believe that Bill Clinton until this day, I mean, will live down in infamy for being shamed and should be more shamed than Monica Lewinsky. He was over 20 years her senior and she, her life was completely shattered.
I think it's interesting that the liberal Hollywood elites essentially do not want to promote the series. If you think about it through pandemic, we've all been watching Netflix and Hulu and FX and all of this docu series. Why hasn't this been promoted? Why hasn't this sold the way that all these other documentaries.
Obviously, until this day, I believe that the liberal media and also the Hollywood elites are still protecting their liberal brand and that would be Bill Clinton and I believe that there's a double standard. Had Hillary Clinton back in the day left her husband, would she have had a better standing when it came to running for president.
It's interesting, Georgina Chapman when she vilified after not leaving Harvey Weinstein right away and her fashion line would have crumbled if she hadn't walked away.
KURTZ: Yes.
BANDERAS: We get Hillary Clinton moved on to run for the White House. It's just interesting how certain Democrats have such protection in Hollywood.
KURTZ: But on the other hand, Monica Lewinsky has been interviewed on CNN, on the Today show, on Daily show.
BANDERAS: Right.
KURTZ: But that doesn't necessarily translate into people -- I don't know, like everyone likes to watch, you know, Princess Diana documentaries. But I don't know that a lot of people want to relive Linda Tripp and all of this list of stuff that went on.
BANDERAS: No. I think first of all that they have nothing to gain, and I think that people are tired of cancel culture. And they don't want to resurrect something that died years ago. This is over. It's done. I believe that Monica Lewinsky has every right to say her peace but she already has, and I just don't see this really moving forward. I mean, let's move on.
KURTZ: Well, I'm glad she has been able to sort of rebuild her life and be an anti-bully --
BANDERAS: Yes, for sure.
KURTZ: -- and advocate and all that. She couldn't answer one question on the HBO shows. I'll throw it to you. If social media had existed, if we lived in the Twitter sphere back in 1998 when the scandal broke would Bill Clinton have been canceled?
BANDERAS: I think in the Me too movement, yes. I believe that because it's such a different era now than it was back then. That yes, I believe with social media, absolutely, he would have been crushed. Would he have been removed from office? Maybe not. I mean, would he be impeached? Yes. But I don't think much would have changed politically.
KURTZ: Yes. I'm sort of with you on that. As someone who covered and lived through it. I mean, people forget how --
BANDERAS: Yes.
KURTZ: -- utterly dominant a story -- there was no Facebook or Twitter -- utterly dominant story.
BANDERAS: Yes.
KURTZ: It was on every kind of channel, every kind of web site. But ultimately, there would have been enough Democratic senators to sustain him in office after the impeachment.
BANDERAS: Sure.
KURTZ: Julie Banderas, great to see you. Thanks so much for joining us again.
BANDERAS: Great to see you.
KURTZ: And still to come, ESPN suspends a host who criticized Barack Obama. Anthony Fauci blames the media. And Rudy Giuliani's secret deal with OAN. The Buzz Beater is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ (on camera): Time to beat the clock on the Buzz Beater. Let's go. ESPN has taken host Sage Steele off the air for now not because she tested positive for COVID and maybe not because she called the network's vaccine mandate sick after getting the shot.
The networks says Steele has to express her opinions, quote, "consistent with our values and in line with our internal policies." That after she said this about Barack Obama identifying on the census as African-American.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAGE STEELE, HOST, ESPN: I think that's fascinating considers -- considering his black dad is nowhere to be found but as white mom and grandma raise him. But hey, you do you, I'm going to do me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): Well that was dumb. And Steele apologized after being suspended. But back when another black host, Jamele Hill called President a white supremacist, ESPN took no action. And you can score that as a double standard.
Rudy Giuliani says he cut a deal with the president of One America News network to assign host Christina Bobb to the Trump legal team and give Rudy veto power over what she could report.
CHRISTINA BOBB, HOST, ONE AMERICA NEWS NETWORK: There is so much evidence of organized voter fraud, that it's going to take a little while to sort through the deals being cut.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: In a deposition reported by the Daily Beast, the former Trump lawyer says he got Charles Herring to agree that Bobb wouldn't be working all that much for OAN for a couple months, Bobb couldn't tell Herring what she learned without permission and if she came up with a good story, quote, "she would have to run it past us so it didn't violate any of our rules. That's pretty stunning."
So as a Reuters report showing the vast majority of OAN's funding comes from AT&T.
The media absolutely pounced on Anthony Fauci for supposedly acting like the grinch on Face the Nation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN, HOST, CBS: But we can gather for Christmas or just too soon to tell?
ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: You know, Margaret, it's just too soon to tell. We just got to concentrate on continuing to get those numbers down and not try to jump ahead by weeks or months.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): President Biden's chief medical advisor pushed back hard on CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAUCI: The way all of the other disinformation goes around, you say something talking about a landmark of a time and it gets misinterpreted that I'm saying you can't spend family Christmas time which is nonsense.
UNKNOWN: And --
FAUCI: You can.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: And he's kind of right on this. When Fauci never said what the headlines claim he said such as Newsweek's Dr. Fauci's COVID Christmas threat must be the final straw. But he might have avoided that pitfall but providing a fuller answer.
Carlos Watson shut down Ozy Media days after the New York Times revealed deception by his co-founder and other major problems. But then he went on the Today show with a new message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARLOS WATSON, FOUNDER, OZY MEDIA: we're going to open for business. So, we're making news today. This is our Lazarus moment.
CRAIG MELVIN, ANCHOR, NBC NEWS: Why would anyone trust Carlos Watson moving forward?
WATSON: Yes. Great question and fair question and heart-breaking question because I'm used to people trusting me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): Yes. With investors bailing and one bringing a fraud suit, good luck with that. Anchor Craig Melvin really pressed Watson especially when he tried to claim Sharon Osbourne was one of his investors. It turns out Watson gave her some shares in the company to settle a lawsuit she had filed. Unreal.
We made it. And finally, two courageous journalists have just won the Nobel Peace Prize. Maria Ressa has been a force against the Philippines' authoritarian president exposing corruption and the violence of his drug war.
Dmitry Muratov continuous to publish an independent paper in Vladimir Putin's Russia despite threats, harassment and the murder of six of his journalists. That is battling for a free press under the most harrowing conditions. I'm glad to see them get that kind of recognition. I don't know if journalists ever won the Nobel Peace Prize before. Maybe long ago but it's tough to do it in that kind of repressive authoritarian environment when violence is used as a tool against the press.
That's it for this edition of Media buzz. I'm Howard Kurtz. We hope you like our Facebook page. We post my daily columns there. And let's of course continue the conversation on Twitter at Howard Kurtz. If you are so inclined, check out my podcast Media Buzz Meter. We deal with the buzziest stories of the day every day, weekday that is. You can subscribe at Apple iTunes, Google podcast, on your Amazon device, Spotify. Need I say more.
Well, as always, we try to cover a whole lot of ground here from politics to Monica Lewinsky. That's a story that dominated my life everybody's else's life. Nikki Haley and so forth. It looks like I'm out of time. So, I'll just say we're back here next Sunday, 11 Eastern. We'll see you then with the latest buzz.
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