Lawyers on Trump case jury will be a plus for him: Tom Dupree
Fox News contributor Jonathan Turley and former principal deputy assistant attorney general Tom Dupree join ‘Fox News Sunday’ to break down former President Trump’s legal case.
This is a rush transcript of ‘Fox News Sunday’ on April 21, 2024. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Shannon Bream.
After months of delay, a House bill greenlighting billions in aid to Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan passes the House and heads to the Senate, but at a potentially high cost for Speaker Mike Johnson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: If we turn our backs right now, the consequences could be devastating.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I do not support Mike Johnson. He's already a lame duck.
BREAM (voice-over): Speaker Johnson risks his leadership position to work with Democrats to pass contentious foreign aid legislation, as Ukraine struggles to hold the line against Russia and Israel strikes back at Iran.
While here at home -- police are called in to try to contain antisemitism on campus.
We'll speak with senators from both sides of the aisle, Republican Lindsey Graham and Democrat Richard Blumenthal.
And House Democrat Jared Moskowitz on whether members of his party will step in to help Speaker Johnson overcome a leadership battle.
Then --
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is a rigged case and this is a case that was put in very strongly because of politics.
BREAM: The jury that will decide President Trump's fate is set in the unprecedented criminal trial of a former U.S. president. We'll break down what's on the horizon for opening arguments and beyond.
And --
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Donald Trump's vision is one of anger, hate, revenge and retribution.
BREAM: President Biden hits the swing state trail as new numbers show him neck and neck in key battlegrounds with Donald Trump. But could RFK, Jr. shake up the race? We'll bring in our Sunday panel to discuss.
Plus, could one of America's fastest growing sports help bring Washington together?
Can these Senate pickle ball caucus solve the world's problems and the country's?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it's a start.
BREAM: All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM (on camera): Hello from FOX News in Washington.
Praise from Israel and Ukraine and condemnation out of Russia after the House passed billions more in funding for Israel, Ukraine, Taiwan, and an aid for Gaza on Saturday. A coalition of Democrats and Republicans passed the $95 billion foreign aid package with nearly $61 billion for Ukraine, more than $26 billion for Israel, and $8 billion for Taiwan and other Indo- Pacific allies. Another bill passed in the House would force China to divest from the U.S. version of TikTok and it imposes new sanctions on Beijing, Russia and Iran.
In a moment, we'll talk with two senators who will begin debating those bills Tuesday, Republican Lindsey Graham and Democrat Richard Blumenthal.
But, first, we've got team coverage from Israel with Trey Yingst, and from Ukraine with FOX News senior foreign affairs correspondent Greg Palkot in Kyiv.
And, Greg, we're going to start with you.
GREG PALKOT, FOX NEWS SENIOR FOREIGN AFFARIS CORRESPONDENT: Shannon, the Kremlin reacting very, very quickly to the word that more U.S. military aid is being sent to Ukraine. They call it a road to escalation which will deepen the crisis around the world. But as we found out on the ground here for the past couple of days, that funding is coming just in time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PALKOT (voice-over): Desperate times in Ukraine, more than two years into the war and Russia is gaining ground, with a massive advantage in artillery and Ukraine short of air defenses, leaving infrastructure shattered, the locals desperate.
YEHOR CHERNIEV, UKRAINE DEPUTY CHAIR OF COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY: I think it's like a lifeline for Ukraine and for Ukrainian army because the situation is getting critical.
PALKOT: Outsiders concerned too. This American military veteran is fighting and training alongside Ukrainians. He speaks from the front line in the country's east.
JOHN "JACKIE" ROBERTS, AMERICAN VETERAN: We need aid right now to stop the current Russian offensive actions that are happening. So we need that aid right now to just hold that back.
PALKOT: And they're getting it along with help to Israel and Taiwan, the House of Representatives okaying $61 billion in aid stuck in Congress for months, replenishing empty ammo stocks, plus direct military aid to Ukrainians loans, humanitarian assistance.
Despite resistance, many saw the threat.
JOHNSON: It's a dangerous time. Three of our primary adversaries, Russia and Iran and China, are working together and they're being aggressors around the globe.
PALKOT: Not soon enough for Ukrainian President Zelenskyy and his team as they tangle with arch-foe Russian President Putin. Without American help, they've been warning they'll lose. Now they have hope.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Thanks to each and every one who supported our package. This is a solution to protect lives.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PALKOT (on camera): Now while this new U.S. military assistance to Ukraine does not include any American boots on the ground, a new report this morning finds that the military staff at the U.S. embassy in Kyiv will be beefed up to as many as 60 service members, not in combat roles but in a crunch, they could get the job done -- Shannon.
BREAM: All right. Greg Palkot in Ukraine -- Greg, thank you.
We want to turn now to FOX News foreign correspondent Trey Yingst in Tel Aviv, Israel.
Hello, Trey.
TREY YINGST, FOX NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Shannon, good morning.
As the conflict in the Middle East develops, Israel is likely to receive billions in new U.S. funding to support their war efforts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On this vote, the ayes are 366 and the nays are 58, the bill is passed.
YINGST (voice-over): A critical funding bill for Israel passing the House of Representatives on Saturday, the plan to send $26 billion to America's key Middle East ally now heads to the Senate and is expected to reach President Biden's desk.
JOHNSON: We've also had language that prevents it from going -- any of the funding going to Hamas or any other bad actors. That's a very important element of oversight.
YINGST: House Speaker Mike Johnson assuring those skeptical of the bill that the money won't end up in the hands of Israel's enemies, as Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu thanked lawmakers for their support.
Netanyahu posted to X, saying: The U.S. Congress just overwhelmingly passed a much appreciated aid bill that demonstrates strong bipartisan support for Israel and defends Western civilization. Thank you, friends. Thank you, America.
Nearly 200 days into the war between Israel and Hamas, there are emerging regional threats that Israeli leadership says must be immediately addressed, namely that of Iran and its proxies who fired hundreds of missiles and drones into Israel earlier this month.
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have been very, very clear from here, from the beginning, that we do not want to see this conflict escalate.
YINGST: While the Biden administration continues to support Israel amid calls for de-escalation, reports indicate the U.S. State Department plans to sanction an Israeli military battalion for human rights violations. The sanctions will prevent the Netzah Yehuda unit from receiving American training or support due to their actions in the West Bank before the current war began.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
YINGST (on camera): Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reacted to the sanctions that are expected, calling them the height of absurdity -- Shannon.
BREAM: And we'll talk more about this.
Trey Yingst from Israel, thank you, Trey.
Joining us now, South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham and Connecticut Democrat Senator Richard Blumenthal.
Thank you all for being here this morning.
We know that you have traveled to Ukraine together, so let's talk about what's going on there because now you have this package coming back to the Senate.
Your fellow colleague Republican J.D. Vance is -- you know, he's got some questions about this. He says in a piece in "The New York Times" that the math doesn't add up.
He says: Ukraine needs more soldiers than it can field, even with draconian conscription policies and it needs more material than the United States can provide. The sooner Americans confront this truth, the sooner we can fix this mess and broker for peace.
He says even with us ramping up our industrial production here, we're not getting a fraction of what Ukraine says it needs. So why prolong this?
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): I think that pessimism underestimates America. You know, we're the strongest, greatest country in the history of the world. We can produce the kind of artillery shells, the long range artillery, the ATACMS that are necessary, the air defense, Patriot systems. Iran (ph) needs many more of them to protect its cities.
And we also can enforce sanctions and seize and sell Russian assets to provide more resources to Ukraine.
So we're building and this measure, strongly bipartisan, I think sends a message to the world -- the foreign minister of Lithuania yesterday said, good to have you back, America.
I think America is back on offense and this sign that we can come together in a bipartisan way for our national security and send a message to Vladimir Putin, to Xi, to the dictators of the world, too soon to be popping your champagne corks. America is going to defend democracy.
BREAM: So, Senator Vance, though works through the numbers when it comes to Patriot missiles, 155 millimeter shells. He talks about all these things and says even if we ramp up to the goals that we have for next year, we're not even going to get to like a third of what Ukraine says they need.
This morning, you got the Russian foreign ministry saying out there it's going to be a fiasco, it's turning into Vietnam, and that we're funding something that's just going to lead to more lost lives.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Well, if you want American military members to stay out of the fight with Russia, help Ukraine. If they go into a NATO nation, Russia, we're in a fight.
So with all due respect to Senator Vance, he's wrong. We were told, within four days, Kyiv would fall.
BREAM: But is he wrong about the math? Is he wrong about the production, our capabilities?
(CROSSTALK)
GRAHAM: Yeah, he's definitely -- yeah, he's wrong about the whole concept that we can't deal with multiple problems. In World War II, we fought the Germans and the Japanese. We have an industrial base that needs to be retooled.
But the Ukrainian military with our help has killed about 50 percent of the combat power of the Russians. This is the year of more. They're going to have more weapons but we also want them to have new weapons, ATACMS to knock the bridge down between Crimea and Russia. They're going to have F- 16s.
So this idea, give up on Ukraine makes the world safer, if you pull the plug on Ukraine because you don't have enough capability, there goes Taiwan. The Ukrainians are fighting like tigers. This aid package has a loan component to it.
This would not have passed without Donald Trump. I want to thank the House speaker and Hakeem Jeffries working together in a bipartisan fashion to give weapons to Ukraine, to fight a fight that matters to us. And President Trump has created a loan component to this package. It gives us leverage down the road.
So this idea that we can't help Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan at the same time, I reject that. I reject it totally.
BREAM: Okay, but let me --
BLUMENTHAL: And he's wrong on the numbers also because the Defense Production Act which we used in the Korean War can convert civilian production capacity to produce the artillery, the vehicles, all of the stuff that the industrial base can and will produce if it's given the right demand signal.
And we know on the Armed Services Committee where I serve, that a consistent demand signal is necessary to produce the kind of investments that that is necessary for those numbers to change.
BREAM: Okay, well, we're not there. The tooling of it has not happened.
GRAHAM: Thank God that that our parents and grandparents didn't have that attitude in World War II. Hey, we can only fight one thing at a time. Nobody's dying in Ukraine.
BREAM: He's not saying that. What he's saying is that we -- that Ukraine doesn't have the manpower it needs and that the --
GRAHAM: That is --
(CROSSTALK)
BREAM: -- that our factories --
GRAHAM: Go, go, I just got back. I was there two weeks ago. They changed their conscription laws. They've got all the manpower they need.
They need weapons, is what they don't have, is weapons. They've just added 200,000 people to the army by changing their conscription laws.
It's one thing to talk about Ukraine over here. It's another thing to go.
I challenge J.D. Vance to go to Ukraine and get a briefing from the Ukrainian military and talk to the Ukrainian people, then tell me what you think.
BREAM: All right. Well, maybe you can all go together --
BLUMENTHAL: He can come on our next trip.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
BREAM: Yeah, he can go on your next trip.
GRAHAM: Yeah, we're going back. You're welcome to come. Quit talking about things you don't know anything about until you go.
BREAM: Okay. We'll wait to hear his response on that.
I want to ask about something else that you all have worked on and that's passing FISA, because it happened late Friday night, and there's been a lot of blowback to that.
Your colleague Mike Lee, who is conservative and in some ways would have a libertarian bent, is very worried about where this is going to go. Like you all, he's an attorney.
He said this as a warning about FISA getting passed without a warrant requirement for Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MIKE LEE (R-UT): Not only are the bill's purported reforms mostly fake and where they're not fake, they're woefully inadequate. Egregious Fourth Amendment violations against U.S. citizens will increase dramatically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: It's not just that conservative senator. It's also the ACLU joining ranks with him, saying this: Last night, Congress reauthorized and expanded Section 702, creating even more ways for the government to secretly surveil us. Our leaders should protect our rights, not make it easier for the government to trample on them.
As I said, you're both attorneys. How do you answer this question about the Fourth Amendment warrantless searches for Americans who know there's evidence out there in the public, tens of thousands of times this has been abused against American citizens?
BLUMENTHAL: I have great respect for Mike Lee, as I do for J.D. Vance and for the ACLU.
The problem here is that the adversaries that we have around the world who want to do us harm have to be stopped, and this kind of surveillance of foreign adversaries, not Americans, it applies only to Americans if they're in touch with those foreign adversaries is absolutely necessary. Sixty percent of the president's morning briefing, what he sees when he comes in first thing in the morning, comes from this kind of surveillance.
And it's not a perfect bill. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need it and I think that the Department of Justice has shown that it will eliminate some of the abuses that have been the source of complaints from the ACLU and others, justifiably. But it is necessary in today's really dangerous, daunting world.
BREAM: Okay. So Senator Dick Durbin, a top Democrat, had an amendment to -- to plug in that warrant piece of this. You all I think both voted against that.
GRAHAM: Yeah, totally.
BREAM: So, yes, we all understand the struggles of national security and those kinds of things but constitutional rights are sacred for a reason.
GRAHAM: We're at war in case you missed it. I've never seen more threats of the homeland than I do right now. The FBI director says everywhere he looks he sees blinking lights. 702 applies to foreign people on foreign soil that we believe mean us harm.
BREAM: But often scoops up Americans in those searches.
GRAHAM: Yes, we're following some guy overseas who we think to be a terrorist. If he's talking to somebody in the United States we can query the system to find out what's up. Maybe they're threatening me. I'm on the threat list.
One of the reasons that they told me about what they want to do to me is they captured something overseas. So if two foreigners are talking about Boeing or Lindsey Graham we can query the system and find out what they're talking about. If they think I'm involved with them they have to get a warrant. But before 9/11 the FBI and the CIA could not talk to each other.
We're at war. They're coming to kill us all. We have a broken border. I want to know what they're talking about over there before they kill us here. And if you shut this thing down you've turned the war into a crime. We're not fighting a crime. We're fighting a bunch of people who would kill all of us if they could get here.
So when you intercept information from a foreigner overseas talking about attacking America, I want to know what they're talking about, and if you believe that Americans are involved you have to get a warrant. We're at war. This is intelligence gathering. These people also wanted us out of Afghanistan. I love Mike Lee. I like J.D. Vance. But they all said we need to leave Afghanistan.
Here's what I will tell you. If you give Putin Ukraine he will not stop. This is not about containing NATO. And if you give him Ukraine there goes Taiwan because China's watching to see what we do. And if you shut down 702 you're making it so easy for the terrorists to talk to each other about killing us. We're at war.
BREAM: OK. I think it's different to talk about shutting down 702 and instituting a warrant requirement involving Americans.
GRAHAM: The warrant shuts it down. That's what I'm trying to tell you. If there's -- if there's information about American picked up you have to get a warrant if you think the Americans up to no good helping the terrorists. But I want to know what they're talking about when it comes to Lindsey Graham.
BLUMENTHAL: Two quick points. First of all, I've been a prosecutor for most of my career. I was the U.S. Attorney in Connecticut, then I was Attorney General of Connecticut for 20 years. I know what it takes to get a warrant, and often these kinds of surveillance activities have to be done quickly, expeditiously without going to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to get a warrant.
I have great respect for the need to have strong oversight. We need to do a better job in the Congress of overseeing these programs so there are no potential abuses because nothing's more important than privacy.
BREAM: Yeah. Exactly we got to leave it there, but you can understand there are a number of Americans who are concerned about the conflict between those things and the fact that the FISA Court has had abuses, so --
GRAHAM: They have.
BREAM: -- we know that you all --
GRAHAM: They have.
BREAM: -- can now have lunch with Senators Lee and Vance.
(CROSSTALK)
GRAHAM: -- concern about America being attacked, right?
BREAM: Yes, as we all are.
GRAHAM: Any minute now.
BREAM: OK. Well, let's hope that is not true. Senators good to see you both. We know that there are imposing threats at all times. Thank you.
GRAHAM: Thank you.
BREAM: OK, joining us now Florida Democratic Congressman Jared Moskowitz. Congressman, welcome to Fox News Sunday.
REP. JARED MOSKOWITZ (D-FL): Good morning Shannon. How you doing?
BREAM: It's good to have you with us. Let's start with Israel because that was a big part of the aid package that was passed yesterday as well. A number of your fellow Democrats voted against it. A joint statement saying this, "Benjamin Netanyahu appears willing to sacrifice the hostages while inflicting extraordinary suffering on the people of Gaza. He's willing to expand this conflict to preserve his power. Most Americans do not want our government to write a blank check to further Prime Minister Netanyahu's war in Gaza."
How do you answer those concerns?
MOSKOWITZ: Well, listen, I -- this war that's going on right now in Gaza is not about one man, it's about the survival of the State of Israel, right? When you have Iran launching ballistic missiles 130 of them towards the State of Israel -- remember ballistic missiles could carry a nuclear payload if Iran ever got nuclear weapons.
People think that this is the first time Israel and Iran are at war and those were the first attacks directly. But Iran's got proxies all over surrounding Israel between the Houthis in Yemen, you had Hamas in Gaza, you have Hezbollah in Lebanon. And so this is really about Israel's survival. And as far as my colleagues on the left that voted against it, I would say the same thing to the 20 Republicans that voted against aid to Israel.
Now is not the time to abandon our allies. Everyone is watching. Russia's watching. China's watching. Iran is watching. And in fact, the Russian Foreign Minister's statement when we passed this aid package wasn't just about Ukraine. Her -- the spokeswoman for the Russian Foreign Minister said, you know, the United States standing by its allies Taiwan, Israel, and Ukraine. They put it together. And that's what we've known all the time. We've known these things are connected. We know Russia and China are trying to destabilize the country, trying to stabilize the world. And we have to make sure the United States stands for Western democracy.
And so, look, it's no surprise to me that the left and the right found themselves usually when that happens that means that the rest of Congress passed a pretty good bill.
BREAM: Well one of the concerns some conservatives have is the nine billion dollars for aid that will flow into Gaza. The Speaker says there were guardrails on it. He's confident that it's going to get to the right place. But the defense for democracies actually has some reporting on this and they look into it and said, you know, there's video that the IDF has taken of Hamas taking these aid trucks as they come over. They say that Hamas is threatening people, some with death, if they help Israel distribute this aid. Are you confident that you can tell the American taxpayer that what we're spending and sending over there is not going to end up in the hands of terrorists?
MOSKOWITZ: Well, look, that's why from the very beginning I favored defunding UNRWA and making sure that we could put steps in place to get the humanitarian aid in without it winding up in the hands of Hamas.
So, look, I think the United States and Israel are going to do the best they can along with their allies in the region Egypt and Jordan to make sure that humanitarian aid gets to the innocent Palestinians in the region.
But look again, right, this is about Hamas wanting to hurt innocent Palestinians. Hamas taking aid away from the innocent Palestinians just like they put weapons in hospitals and in schools, just like they tell innocent Palestinians not to leave otherwise they'll be shot. Just like fighting them, locating themselves. Hamas fighters amongst the population using them as human shields.
And so, yes, you know, we'll do everything we can. But I do think it's critical that we make sure we get humanitarian aid into Gaza. Because right now, there's this notion out there that Israel's committing a genocide which is a hundred percent false. There's a genocide going on in Sudan which we don't hear a lot about. But there is no genocide in Gaza. But we do need to make sure that we do prevent famine. And so that's why getting that aid in is critical.
BREAM: I want to play something that happened on the -- on the House floor yesterday. This is a moment when things were getting past. People rallied waving Ukrainian flags. There was cheering, numerous times they were told this is against protocol. They couldn't be doing this. Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who I know is sort of your maybe nemesis, the two of you at this point. She said that showed a sellout of America Congress. Folks in Congress waving the Ukrainian flag on the House of Representatives floor while doing nothing to secure the U.S. border. Your response?
MOSKOWITZ: Well, I mean listen, first of all, Marjorie Taylor Greene is not a serious person. She's not a serious legislator, quite frankly, that's why I think what the way we've been treating her now is she is Putin's special envoy to Congress. The idea that she would criticize anybody else that somehow we're not respecting America. The way you disrespect America is not by standing by our allies, not by strengthening in us.
What Marjorie Taylor Greene and what Thomas Massie and what Paul Gosar are trying to accomplish by removing the Speaker of the House in this very moment after October 7th would only embolden China, it would only embolden Russia, it would only embolden Iran. She would let the Ayatollah and Iran take Israel. And she would let Putin take Europe, not just Ukraine.
BREAM: OK.
MOSKOWITZ: So I don't want to be lectured by Marjorie Taylor Greene. That - - that being said, listen, there are protocols on the House floor. I think it was a big moment that Democrats and Republicans came together but I understand waving flags on the floor is against protocol.
BREAM: OK. I think that's a lot to accuse her of, you know, giving up Israel to Iran and Ukraine to Putin but she's welcome to come on the show.
MOSKOWITZ: She's voted against all those packages.
BREAM: Well, I think that that's a lead from there but -- but we -- she is welcome to come here. And you guys can have a debate too. Congressman, we always appreciate your time.
MOSKOWITZ: Appreciate it. Thank you.
BREAM: Thank you.
Up next, the jury has been selected opening arguments set for tomorrow and former President Trump's criminal trial in New York City. Our legal panel is here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: They've taken away my constitutional rights to speak and that includes speaking to you. I have a lot to say to you and I'm not allowed to say it. And I'm the only one. Everyone else can say whatever they want about me. They can say anything they want. They can continue to make up lies and everything else. They lie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: Former President Trump lashing out against the gag order placed on him in the New York hush money trial. It is time now for a legal panel.
George Washington University Law Professor and Fox News Contributor Jonathan Turley and former Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General Tom Dupree. Welcome back, gentlemen.
JONATHAN TURLEY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you, Shannon.
TOM DUPREE, FORMER PRINCIPAL DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thank you, Shannon.
BREAM: OK. So we're into the hush money trial. We think arguments will start up tomorrow. Now, there's this back and forth too about the fact that the Defense says they don't know who the witnesses are going to be. And the New York -- or excuse me "Washington Post" reporting on this, said, "The two sides had sparred Thursday over the issue with prosecutors saying they would not provide witness names in advance because of Trump's repeated violations of the gag order barring him from talking about witnesses in the case."
We have a look at some of the potential witnesses who could show up. But Jonathan, how do you prep for day one if you don't know who might be on the witness stand?
TURLEY: Right. This has been a problem with -- with criminal defense attorneys like myself. This is a standard problem of prosecutors holding on to the last minute to make disclosures. What concerns me about this is the judge's response. The judge should have said, you should err on the side of disclosure and also should point out whatever sanctions there are for the gag order. Those will come at my judgment after we have a hearing. This is not on the menu of options for you. You can't restrict the fairness of the trial or disclosures of witnesses because you think he violated an order. That's up to me. I think the court could have done that. And this is one of those times where I feel like the judge could have done more.
There's no reason to do this in my view but it really works against due process in a fair trial. You -- you want the parties to be prepared. And here you've got the -- the district attorney saying, I'm just going to unilaterally withhold them because I think there's a violation here.
BREAM: So what jurors will get to is we think witnesses who we don't know starting tomorrow potentially we're at least opening arguments. But we're told about the jury that's been seated as it includes, quote, "multiple lawyers."
"Politico" says "Trump's legal team might see a silver lining in having lawyers on the jury, quote, 'They're not emotional thinkers.' This one trial consultant says, 'THE profession requires them to do analysis and emotional thinkers get more easily swayed by the side that goes first the side that tells a good story."
Tom, is it a plus or minus that he's got some lawyers on?
DUPREE: I think it is a plus for Trump that there are lawyers on the jury. And here's why. Prosecutors notoriously don't like seating lawyers on juries precisely because they are independent thinkers who often think they know better than the prosecutors do. They can be a bit of a wild card. They come to jury service with a lot of legal education and you never know what goes on in the jury room.
And, look, having chosen juries, having tried cases in front of juries, their lawyers are going to spend the next six weeks trying to read the tea leaves, watching the jurors' reactions to the witness testimony as it comes in. But no one is ever going to know what those jurors are truly thinking until it's time to deliberate and render a verdict. But the fact that there will be lawyers participating in deliberations and rendering the verdict definitely a plus for the defense.
TURLEY: This is one of the few times where Tom and I disagree, because I have long opposed lawyers even being allowed to be on juries.
BREAM: Mm-hmm.
TURLEY: On this case, it could be highly damaging. Because many of us are still debating what this indictment means. We're not convinced or we're not certain what the crime is --
BREAM: Mm-hmm.
TURLEY: -- that was the motivation of the alleged -- what was a misdemeanor under state law.
To have lawyers in there, they can be given undue influence --
BREAM: Mm-hmm.
TURLEY: -- with a jury.
And if they say, oh no, this is clear, this is standard, that may sway them. That's why in some states, like Illinois, they used to say, if you had even more than one year of law school, you wouldn't be on a jury.
I think it's not a good thing for a defendant --
BREAM: Mm-hmm.
TURLEY: -- because of the influence that can be exercised over the jury.
BREAM: I feel like it's gotten me out of jury duty many times. That being a member of the media.
OK. So let's talk about the other case that isn't getting as much attention, could be very critical to the federal cases, which is the Supreme Court on Thursday has added this expedited argument about immunity, about whether President Trump has immunity.
"The Atlantic" says, if that's granted, they call it one of the most dangerous assertions. They say, "A president would have license to do things like use the U.S. military to subvert democracy, for example, by endeavoring to remain in power, past the end of his legitimate term, or avoiding accountability in the country would have little to no recourse."
Tom.
DUPREE: Yes. Look, this case may not be getting the attention that a big courtroom drama in New York City does, but you're absolutely right. It is a critical case, for frankly, the future of our republic about how much presidents can do in office without potentially being subject to criminal jeopardy.
This is a question the Supreme Court somewhat surprisingly has not yet definitively resolved in our nation's history. I think they are going to be wrestling with thorny questions, the SEAL Team Six example.
BREAM: Mm-hmm.
DUPREE: Could you have a president order a political assassination? They need to give the president some degree of protection.
I'm not sure they are going to go the full route of granting absolute immunity, carte blanche to any president, but they may say that the district court's interpretation of immunity was too narrow, too crab, and possibly send it back for the district --
BREAM: Mm-hmm.
DUPREE: -- court to make a closer examination of whether President Trump should be immune from some of these charges.
BREAM: And then that drags this thing out even further if they do send it back to the trial court.
Well, and one of his, all caps postings, as he likes to do, President Trump, on social media, says this, "If immunity is not granted to a president, every president that leaves office will be immediately indicted by the opposing party without complete immunity, a president of the United States would not be able to properly function."
How does that land with the justices?
TURLEY: Well, everything is contextual at these moments. And I think these democratic district attorneys have really made the case for Trump. They've shown how presidents can be taken from pillar to post across the country, being hit civilly and criminally with these types of charges. And they've made the case for the need of some protection.
It's doubtful, and I agree with Tom, that they're going to go all the way that the president went, in terms of the absolute claims of immunity.
But the president will win significantly if he's -- if they send this back. That is the court could simply say, look, we think you went too far. You didn't give us a record and create a more nuanced --
BREAM: Maybe in the lower court.
TURLEY: -- approach, right. That will throw a wrench into the plans to hold the trial in D.C. with the special counsel.
And I think that there's dangers on both sides. And I think that some of these justices will be as concerned with the sweeping quality of the district court opinion as they are with the claims of the former president.
BREAM: All right. I'll see you there Thursday.
DUPREE: Absolutely.
BREAM: At least in spirit. If you're not there in person, I'll be there.
Jonathan and Tom, thank you very much.
TURLEY: Thank you.
BREAM: Always appreciate your time.
Up next, new Fox News polling shows Biden and Trump in tight races in several battleground states with the former president pulling ahead in key races that propelled President Biden to victory in 2020.
Our panel is next on the state of the race.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ladies and gentlemen, this is Donald Trump, your favorite president of all time, hopefully.
As you can see, there's some very bad weather heading in and we're flying in, in a few minutes, but they really would prefer that we not come in because it's a certain danger to all of this. And we want to make sure that everybody is safe above all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: A disappointing crowd in Wilmington, North Carolina, as storms and lightning rolled in, shutting down a planned Trump rally where many have been gathered for hours. Former president promising a rain check.
It is time now for our Sunday group. From "Town hall.com," host of The Guy Benson Show and a Fox News contributor, Guy Benson. "USA Today" White House correspondent, Francesca Chambers. Forbes contributing writer and a Fox News contributor, Richard Fowler. And The Heritage Foundation president, Kevin Roberts.
Welcome to all of you. You made it safely here, which is a good thing.
We've got a slew of new Fox polls out. I want to put these up from some swing states that are very important to both of these campaigns, Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. You've got an edge for President Trump in Georgia and Michigan.
Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, though, Guy, tied up at this point. Of course, we knew the polls would tighten as we get down to the actual campaigning.
GUY BENSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: And I think the Trump campaign would very happily take all of those numbers at this particular moment, up six in Georgia, seven if you include the wider field.
Pennsylvania is a tough state for Republicans. It has been for a long time to be tied there. Wisconsin's not surprising. It's always tied in Wisconsin. It feels like --
BREAM: Mm-hmm.
BENSON: -- in a recent decade, decade and a half.
So I continue to believe that if this election were held this coming Tuesday, the day after tomorrow, I think Trump would win. Or at least it would be favored to win.
But we have six months to go.
BREAM: Mm-hmm.
BENSON: And one of the key issues here that the Trump campaign, I think, needs to grapple with is the Democrats and Biden, they have an advantage when it comes to the likeliest voters.
BREAM: Mm-hmm.
BENSON: The people who will absolutely turn out. Polling suggests that Trump supporters might be less reliable voters, or even right now unregistered voters. That's going to take a lot of work if they want to solidify the position that they're in right now and actually get people to the polls to materialize a win.
BREAM: Mm-hmm. And one of -- one of the arguments is that the issues that matter the most are the ones that were President Trump is favored. We've got another poll with that coming up.
But again, looking against these battleground states, when you look at disapproval for the president, he is way underwater in all of these states, Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, Richard, by 10 points or more.
RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: But that's the telling thing. And I think where Guy is right is that for the Trump campaign, what the trouble - - what the trouble is, is that in the last election in 2020, Trump has to make up the seven million vote gap. That's what he lost by. And he's going to have to figure out a way to turn on his base.
And the good news for Biden is you're tied in Pennsylvania. You're tied in Wisconsin. And you're also 10 points in the -- in the whole when it comes to approval rating.
And so what the Biden campaign has to do in this moment, is go to these states, visit these states on the regular and begin to talk about the things you're doing that are going to be popular to your most unlikely voter.
During the State of the Union, I spent some time with some voters who are not sure what they're going to do with selection. And what I found was after 45 minutes of the president giving an address, the loudest applause line was this. He is going to cap late fees on credit cards to $8. Big deal for these voters.
BREAM: Mm-hmm.
FOWLER: When the president can go to these states and have these conversation with those voters, that could be all the difference.
Beyond that, in many of these states, or for the Biden campaign now in the state of Florida, for example, with abortion being on the ballot there, right? With the abortion -- with the abortion law in Arizona being a big issue for those voters that will also help gin up support for the Biden campaign.
But it does not mean they don't have to work for this. They're going to have to do a lot of work on the ground to get these unlikely voters out in places like Georgia, in places like Ohio, in places like Michigan.
BREAM: Well, and let's get to the issues there because you mentioned abortion. We know the economy. Here is where in one of these states where it's tied, Wisconsin, how people rate, who is better to handle these issues. Biden has the advantage on abortion, healthcare, and election integrity.
Trump has the advantage on foreign policy, economy, and immigration and the border.
Kevin, it's a -- it's a mash-up there of things people care about and who they think is better equipped to handle them.
KEVIN ROBERTS, PRESIDENT, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: It really is, Shannon. But one of the consistencies you see across the several Fox polls, certainly the polls that we do at Heritage every month, and for that matter, the polls of other outlets, is that the election is going to turn on a couple of issues.
It's going to turn on the economy on which President's Biden -- President Biden's performance has been terrible. And it's going to turn on lawlessness. The lawlessness at the southern border and the lawlessness in cities.
On those issues, President Trump is wide ahead -- widely ahead, but also there's nothing that President Biden is going to do to change his performance on those two things.
So I'm very confident about President Trump's ability to win this election. I'd spoke to him about a week ago. He's not overconfident about this. He's resolved.
But ultimately, the American people are saying the following, Shannon, that when they wake up each day, the American dream is slipping away.
And when they turn on the news last night and they see that the border is still open and that Democrats are waving the Ukrainian flag when we send $60 billion to protect another country's border, but not our own, President Biden is in deep trouble this election and he deserves every bit of it.
BREAM: Well, another headache for him is the fact that RFK Jr. continues to add on to other state ballots, including in Michigan, which is one of those very critical states where he's had trouble.
"The Hill" reporting this yesterday, "Kennedy secured that spot on a ballot in Michigan. A battleground state Biden desperately needs to win, but where he appears quite vulnerable."
If Kennedy wins, even a small sliver of voters there, it could be lights out for the president.
Francesca, that's got to be giving them some heartburn over the White House.
FRANCESCA CHAMBERS, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, USA TODAY: So the Biden campaign, at this point, is waiting to see what happens after the Labor Day time period.
But what I would expect you to hear from Democrats is that if you are someone who wanted to abandon Biden in the Democratic presidential primary, they'll argue that RFK isn't your candidate.
He is a staunch supporter of Israel. He has reiterated that repeatedly, so he's not your guy, if you're upset with President Biden about that issue.
The Biden campaign is trying to overcome this difficulty by turning out his support among black voters, by turning out his support among union voters, but he does have a problem in that state with young people. And that's something that I wrote about this week is that he is having difficulty with young people in the state of Michigan, as well as Nevada and a bunch of other states.
And so that is absolutely something the Biden campaign is going to have to focus on in these battleground states, including Michigan, Wisconsin, Nevada, and elsewhere.
BREAM: Yes. So maybe they don't go to RFK, Jr. or Trump, but maybe they stay home. And that's it. That's a critical problem for us, too.
CHAMBERS: Yes.
BREAM: OK, panel, do not go anywhere.
Up next, anti-Israel protests spark trouble across the country, including at Columbia University this week, leading to dozens of arrests and a showdown over free speech and campus safety.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are Hamas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're Hamas? Wow!
You're what? You're Hamas?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we're all Hamas, pig.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 7th of October is going to be every day for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: All right, just a sampling of anti-Israel protesters near Columbia University this week. More than a hundred of them were arrested Thursday after being repeatedly asked to break down the encampment on campus. Which, by the way, came back very quickly.
We are back now with the panel.
"Wall Street Journal" Editorial Board talked about this problem and how it's going to be a problem probably through the summer too. They say, "liberal and Democratic leaders have tolerated such behavior for too long. The test now is if liberal elites, especially Democratic mayors, have the courage to enforce norms to protect the public, their own cities, and their own nominating convention. Protesters are betting they don't."
Kevin, we talked about what this could mean for the convention story in the commercial.
KEVIN ROBERTS, PRESIDENT, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Well, I'm not looking forward to the one that I'm attending. If I'm invited to the other one, I wouldn't look forward to that one either for other reasons.
But the point is that anti-Semitism is running rampant. Hate crimes against Jewish Americans are at a 30-year high. For all of us across the political spectrum, from left to right, this - we ought to find this abhorrent.
But as a recovering academic, as you know, Shannon, and having led an institution of higher learning, I have seen the societal rot in colleges and universities for a long time. And it isn't just anti-Semitism. It is the long march through the institutions that the radical left has done. And so what we need to recognize as a society, whether it's concerning colleges or the conventions, as you mentioned, is that it's really time for us to stand up. Maybe cast our gaze a little bit higher than Washington, D.C., and the policy and politics here. And in our own communities and neighborhoods, get back to getting to know one another, exterminating this hatred, and making sure that we're taking back our institutions.
BREAM: Well, and on the issue of higher education, there's another big issue making headlines this week, which are changes to Title IX by the Biden administration. This is the way that Riley Gaines, who is probably very familiar to a lot of folks out there, a college athlete, superstar, who was speaking out on issues of gender in sports. She says, "the Biden administration has just officially abolished Title IX as we knew it. Now sex equals gender identity. In a nutshell, the new rewrite means, men can take academic and athletic scholarships from women, men will have full access to bathrooms, locker rooms, et cetera, me could be house in dorm rooms with women, students and faculty must compel their speech by requiring the use of preferred pronouns. If the guidelines above are ignored or even questioned, than you can be charged with harassment."
Franchesca, there had been questions about whether or not the administration would go this far or kind of soften this in an election year, but not so much.
FRANCESCA CHAMBERS, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "USA TODAY": But it doesn't actually include sports and that is one thing that we're still waiting to see in terms of a rule. What do they do about that? And whether or not the Biden administration decides to even act on this.
So, this deals specifically with sex discrimination. It also prevents the harassments, the Biden administration saying, of women who were pregnant and a whole host of others things besides that. But I think it's important to separate this from the rule that the Biden administration is looking at as to whether or not there can be transgender athletes playing in sports.
BREAM: This is what they say about the regulation. The official statements. "The final regulations will help to ensure that all students receive appropriate support when they experience sex discrimination and that recipients' procedures for investigating and resolving complaints of sex discrimination are fair to all involved."
And, Guy, this has provoked this conversation again about due process and the way that the Trump era rules worked versus what this is going to do.
GUY BENSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Right. A lot of people say that under the Obama administration it was sort of this kangaroo court system where there was just a massive amount of deference given to the accuser and not due process to the accused. That was change under President Trump and the secretary, DeVos, and then the Biden team has flipped back to the Obama sort of model here on this.
So, I think that is an important debate. I think the Trump team was a lot closer to getting it right. I think this is a regression in the name of progress. And I think Francesca's point is really important on the sports piece of it, politically speaking, because I don't think it is a coincidence that the Biden team decided that they were going to sidestep the question of sports because kit is politically toxic, because they probably see some internal data showing, let's not go that far right before an election. That might be a second term project for this president if he earns one.
BREAM: All right, I want to make sure you get to this other controversy we've been covering for days now with regard to NPR, which is publicly funded with your tax dollars. Uri Berliner wrote, he was at the time a senior editor over at NPR for 25 years, but he wrote and lifted the curtain saying this, "an open-minded spirit no longer exists within NPR. That wouldn't be a problem for an openly polemical news outlet serving a niche audience, but for NPR, which purports to consider all things, it's devastating both for its journalism and its business model."
Richard, he was suspended. He quit. Now there are questions on Capitol Hill and new calls to defund or at least scrape back some of the funding for something that to a lot of people does not seem to be a neutral outlet.
RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Look, I think this is a tough position. And I think that you have to zoom out and go beyond just NPR and we have to have a conversation about the fourth estate and journalism.
As a professor, when I talk to my journalism students, we have a conversation about what it means to be objective, what it means to be a journalist and call balls and strikes and actually put things in context for your audience. And I think that's what journalism is about.
I think because of a polarized nature of our country, we, as journalists, have been caught in the middle of these two things. And also with commentators we've been caught in the middle of these two things and we've been forced to question the conversation around truth.
And I would be remised if not talking about this and not also having the conversation that this week the Congress - it looks like very likely that Congress will ban TikTok, right, which is also part of freedom of expression, freedom of speech, which is - leads to a slippery slope of what happens when other countries decided to ban Facebook or decide to ban X, which is American properties, and what do we do. And this is the question we have to ask ourselves, how do we have this conversation and how do we have free speech in this country?
BREAM: Well, when we're paying for it, that changes the conversation to.
All right, panel, thank you very much. See you next Sunday. Up next, we're going to take you behind the scenes for a look at how efforts at bipartisanship in the nation's capital are taking a form of, well, one of the country's fastest growing sports. Yes, I played. I'm terrible. You'll see for yourself, next.
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BREAM: Most Americans agree there's too much that divides red and blue America these days, but I spent an afternoon with a bipartisan group of senators who were trying to bridge this gap on the pickleball court. Here's our Sunday special.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I would just say to my Republican friends, if you don't like listening to people you disagree with, get a new job.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gentlemen's time has expired.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I see nothing but complete hypocrisy on the other side of the aisle.
BREAM (voice over): On Capitol Hill you often see lawmakers settling scores.
SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R-WV): Two, zero, one.
BREAM (voice over): But what most don't get to see are the debates settled on the fifth floor of the Dirksen Senate Building, on the pickleball court.
CAPITO: We just thought it would be a good - a good way for us to do bipartisan things together that are fun. Doesn't take a whole lot of time and is not to complicated.
BREAM (voice over): Senator Shelley Moore Capito co-chair the Senate Pickle Ball Caucus with fellow Republican Thom Tillis.
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Oh, nice shot.
BREAM (voice over): They say it's a way to get off the talking points and to connect with their colleagues from both sides of the aisle.
TILLIS: We're always looking for other ways to kind of lower the temperature and do what's best for the American people. And you do this by working together.
BREAM (voice over): On this day Democrat John Hickenlooper joined them on the courts.
SEN. JOHN HICKENLOOPER (D-CO): When I first came to the Senate, I thought it was going to be all hardball. But, of course, pickleball is a softball and you see that sometimes a softer approach can get more results.
BREAM (voice over): The father pickleball even once served in the halls of Congress. Its creation, in 1965 by Joel Pritchard, who was then serving in the Washington state senate and was later elected to the U.S. House, has the goal of curing summer boredom.
Steve Valliant and Maya Ben-David are cofounders of the DC Pickle Ball League. They explain why this is the nation's fastest growing sport.
MAYA BEN-DAVID, CO-FOUNDER OF THE DC PICKLEBALL LEAGUE: You can be playing slow or as fast as you want. It's so social. And I really breaks any, you know, different socio-economic backgrounds and it's really fun.
BREAM (voice over): The game really took off during the pandemic.
STEVE VALIANT, CO-FOUNDER OF THE DC PICKLEBALL LEAGUE: When Covid hit and everyone went outside simultaneously all across the country at the same time. And there were groups of hundreds of people every day, all over the country, playing this game outside.
BREAM (voice over): It soon took hold on Capitol Hill.
BREAM: How did this whole thing get started anyway?
TILLIS: Well, we're always looking for an opportunity to be active and find some way to get members to come together.
BREAM: Do you solve things here? Do you discuss things here?
CAPITO: Of course.
BREAM: Is it a chance to get your aggression out?
CAPITO: Well, we raz each other, that's the good thing, but that creates -
TILLIS: She (ph) does some cheating (ph).
BREAM (voice over): This bipartisan group of lawmakers admits they've learned a lot about one another and built bonds that carry over off the court.
TILLIS: It does let you, you know, like build some positive energy, let's put it that way.
HICKENLOOPER: And, you know, there's also a certain level of humility that is absolutely required -
CAPITO: That is true.
HICKENLOOPER: Because in the course of an hour, all of us are going to do something silly, or stupid. We're going to stumble and -
TILLIS: Na (ph).
CAPITO: Sports has a way of sort of being the great equalizer.
TILLIS: There you go.
BREAM (voice over): And despite the competitive desire to crush their opponents, these lawmakers say the caucus really is about forging relationships.
TILLIS: You serve.
BREAM (voice over): Connections that have strengthened even in the short time the caucus has been around.
HICKENLOOPER: Nice. Oh!
TILLIS: (INAUDIBLE).
HICKENLOOPER: Serve and point.
BREAM (voice over): They even let me play a point or two.
CAPITO: That's game. Good game.
TILLES: Game.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM (on camera): And, just to note, my team lost solely because of me.
Also, my podcast is out today, "Livin' the Bream," drops this afternoon. This week I sat down with Candace Cameron Bure and Rebecca St. James. We discussed their new film, "Unsung Hero," which tells the incredible story of a family that lost nearly everything except their faith in each other. It is a fantastic film. It's out Friday.
That's it for us today. Thanks for joining us. I'm Shannon Bream. Have a great week. Play some pickleball. And we'll see you next FOX NEWS SUNDAY.
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END
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