Kinzinger: Diplomacy works with credible military threat
On 'The First 100 Days,' congressman speaks out about the showdown with North Korea
This is a rush transcript from "The First 100 Days," April 17, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, HOST: Tonight, nearly 1.5 million Americans would have only 20 minutes to prepare for an attack from North Korea. Tonight, the Hawaiian Islands, which are within the strike zone, are starting to revamp their emergency response plans that they have not even looked at since 1985. This, as the vice president signals a new era.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: It was more than some quarter century ago that we first learned of the presence of nuclear weapons on the Korean Peninsula in the possession of North Korea. There was an agreed framework. There was a period of strategic patience. But the era of strategic patience is over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum, this is day 88 of THE FIRST 100. So, in the Trump presidency, you could say the world is looking very different, as action and dialogue with our adversaries has clearly ramped up. Now, the Trump White House responds to another missile test from Kim Jong-un of North Korea. And tonight, we can report that another test looks like it is now being prepared and this one may be nuclear. This show of bravado over the weekend raised questions about whether these missiles that you'll see in a second are real or are some of these perhaps decoys, as has happened in the past. So, the White House grapples with these extremely high stakes of what comes next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
H. R. MCMASTER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I think there's a great opportunity for all of us. All of us who are really under the threat now of this unpredictable regime, to take action short of armed conflict, so we can avoid the worst.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I don't want to telegraph what I'm doing or what I'm thinking. I'm not like other administrations where they say, "We're going to do this in four weeks," and that doesn't work that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, in moments, we'll be joined by retired four-star General Jack Keane, on America's options. First, Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger is a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee and a veteran of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Good to have you here tonight, Congressman, welcome.
REP. ADAM KINZINGER, R-ILL.: Thank you. Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Is there any other way, you know, this is the most mysterious nation, perhaps, in the world, and they seem to be ramping for a fight. Is there another way?
KINZINGER: Well, look, you know, I think if diplomacy is going to work, and that's our hope because, again, the very worst-case scenario is North Korea with nuclear weapons. Next, the worst case is the U.S. has to take pre-emptive action. So, the hope is that in the space over here, we can use diplomacy. The problem is diplomacy against an adversary only works with a credible threat of military backing it, not just a threat of - a credible threat, which is look, if you cross this line which is going to allow you to take your currently existing nuclear arsenal, by the way, and marry it to a warhead that can strike our allies or the United States, we cannot, we will not let that happen. North Korea right now is sitting in the exact position, we have done everything we can to prevent Iran from (INAUDIBLE) and that's where North Korea is now.
MACCALLUM: Yes, it's such a great point because we spent so much time over the last several years talking about and worrying about Iran, which is clearly a huge threat. But then, you have this, you know, perhaps even more irrational actor, who is sitting on the potential for these nuclear weapons. And he seems to be in a posture that says that eliminating some of his enemies around the world may be the only way that he gets to hang in there, right?
KINZINGER: Yes, and look, we have to take him at his word. When Kim Jong- un says he will strike the United States, he will use nuclear weapons against the United States, we have to take him at his word because if we don't and he actually means it, we're going to find ourselves in a very bad situation. But, you know, the broader point is this, I did not hear it, maybe he did and I missed it. I never heard President Obama talk about the North Korean threat. And then, all of a sudden, he has this meeting with President-elect Trump in his office and tells him that North Korea is going to be your biggest issue. So, what we are seeing now is President Trump, who is realizing that he has to defend this country, now taking action. And you have some on the left that are throwing their hands up, saying, you know, it's a warmonger. No, this is actually a president doing what's necessary to hopefully get to a solution that doesn't include a military strike in North Korea.
MACCALLUM: But that's a great point. I mean, that's the word that President Trump has, you know, relayed, that President Obama said, "Look, this is your number one threat, North Korea." And you raised a great question. So, why didn't we hear more about it during the Trump - during the Obama administration, rather? Here is President Trump earlier today with Ainsley Earhardt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You read Clinton's book, he said, "Oh, we made such a great peace deal," and it was a joke. You look at different things over the years with President Obama. Everybody has been outplayed. They've all been outplayed by this gentleman. And we'll see what happens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, this leader is in an untenable position in many ways. I mean, is it possible that the people of North Korea -- can he be toppled if enough information in flow gets to the people of North Korea?
KINZINGER: It's possible and we're seeing signs of instability. You know, there are more defectors, their DVD's are getting slept in, and people are seeing it, they understand a little bit more of the world out there. But I got to tell you, look, the best thing we can do is hope that the Chinese take this very seriously. And I think that's what a lot of this is, is compelling China to make a difference because, look, we cannot, President Trump will not -- I have confidence -- accept a North Korea with the ability to strike our allies or the United States. So, that only leaves one option if diplomacy doesn't work. So, let's pray tonight that diplomacy works. But it can only work when backed with a military - credible military threat.
MACCALLUM: Thank you so much. Congressman Kinzinger, good to see you, as always.
So, for more on what we're hearing from the Trump administration tonight, Chief White House Correspondent John Roberts joins us from the North Lawn. Good evening, John.
JOHN ROBERTS, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Martha, good evening to you. You heard it just a second ago when President Trump a quick interview there with Ainsley Earhardt that successive White House administrations have tried to cut deals with North Korea, and they get a deal only to see North Korea cheat on it and then demand another deals. It's kind of like that child's book "Give a mouse a cookie and they'll probably ask you for some milk. And then they'll want some more cookies," and on and on like that.
So, this president is adopting a far different policy toward North Korea than his predecessors. And the White House is pointing to the recent actions that President Trump took in both Syria and Afghanistan to say, "This is how this president deals with bad actors in the world." The president again said today that he doesn't want to telegraph what he is going to do about North Korea, only that Kim Jong-un has to change his behavior. Here's a brief statement from the president at the egg roll followed by what Sean Spicer said at the White House briefing this afternoon. Listen here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN SPICER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Drawing red lines hasn't really worked in the past. He holds his cards close to the best. I don't think that you're going to see the president drawing red lines in the sand. But I think that the action he took in Syria shows that when appropriate, this president will take decisive action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: The urgency of the threat from North Korea escalated after that weekend show of force, all those missile canisters and mobile launchers going down the street. Though, impossible to know if they were all full or some of them were empty. As a show of force, the Pentagon is diverting the USS Carl Vinson and its strike group from a planned trip to Australia, now, to the Sea of Japan, where it will be stationed off of the Korean Peninsula.
The vice president at the demilitarized zone today is saying that the days of the Obama era policy of strategic patience are over, though, Kim Jong-un likely to test the United States patients even further. The North Korean leaders vowing that they will hold the missile test every week. We'll see how the White House response to that. Martha?
MACCALLUM: John, thank you.
Here with more than that, retired four-star general Jack Keane, chairman of the Institute for the Study of War and a FOX News Military Analyst. General, welcome, good to have you here tonight.
JACK KEANE, FOX NEWS MILITARY ANALYST: Glad to be here. Martha.
MACCALLUM: You've heard the conversation preceding. We saw the pictures and the voice of Vice President Pence in South Korea. He is just the latest of several of our top officials, including military officials, to visit South Korea. How is the structure around this issue developing and changing in the Trump administration?
KEANE: Well, they recognize and that this is probably their most dangerous threat that they are facing. And what is different about this, I mean, North Korea has had nuclear weapons for 20, 25 years. So, that's something not the issue because multiple administrations have never done anything about that, and I don't think this administration would.
What's truly happening here is this irrational, unpredictable leader, as we accurately described him, is rushing towards a ballistic missile capability. You talk about strategic patience, he has strategic impatience. And that's what's got our attention because he wants to weaponize those ballistic missiles that could range our U.S. bases and our allies, and as he has advertised on more than one occasion, actually developed an intercontinental ballistic missile, which could range the United States itself. The fact is that he is developing this missile technology at a very accelerated pace. And that has got our attention coupled with the rhetoric that he would actually use it.
So, yes, this administration I think has faced its full square for what it really is. One of my problems with President Obama, for eight years, he had a tendency to minimize the actual threat and exaggerate our performance against a -- threats in the world. And I think they purposely minimize this North Korean threat.
MACCALLUM: So this, about 25, 26 million people in North Korea, and you look at these parade videos and we've seen the images of people in the streets, you know, praising their leader, their dear leader, and all of this sort of, you know, fabricated in some cases, or maybe they - you know, maybe it is true. Maybe everyone believes everything that is expressed on their face when they look at this leader.
But Jack, what can you tell us about these people? Because we have seen in the past that the power of the people can be very instrumental in turning a new leaf in these situations, is there any potential for that in North Korea?
KEANE: Very little potential. This is a totally terrorized and intimidated population. The population doesn't even eat food properly. You know, their body makeup is totally different than the people in the South. They are shorter, they don't have as large a frame, they are not healthy. No, that is not going to happen. What we're doing now, what the Trump administration has said is we're going to rely on China to do what they have never done before. Almost 25 years, all of political, economic, and diplomatic options associated with China failed.
But I do believe that President Trump did get the President Xi on this issue. And I know for a fact, President Xi called last Wednesday after a follow-up to the Mar-a-Lago meetings that took place on the weekend, and indicated that he is willing to work towards denuclearizing North Korea. He's going to start with economic sanctions. This will take some time to play out. But that's a move in the right direction. He's got another option that he's probably never going to talk about. And that is to assassinate Kim Jong-il and create a military coup or some kind of coup. You get another leader who is actually more responsible. Whether that's possible or not, given the dimensions of North Korea and China, I can't see from this vantage point.
But for sure, publicly, he is going to move in a direction that none of his predecessors have moved in. And that is to begin to economically sanction North Korea to get their attention because 85 and 90 percent of everything that happens in North Korea, from an economic perspective, comes through China. So, we have to applaud that effort. It will take some time. Meanwhile, we know what North Korea is going to be doing. They'll probably going to blow up the nuclear test, their sixth one, and they're going to keep missile developing and testing those missiles. Now, thankfully, I do believe that we are interdicting those missiles as we have just seen this weekend, and about 50 percent of those missiles that they've test have, in fact, failed.
MACCALLUM: Well, maybe those tests are tests for us as well, in terms of our ability to take them out if indeed that would happen. And of course, the reason that they don't talk about -- assassination from the White House -- is because it's not -- it's against U.S. international policy to do that. We'll see. General Jack Keane, thank you, sir. Always good to have you with us.
KEANE: It wouldn't be our assassination. It would be the Chinese, Martha.
MACCALLUM: I understand. All right.
KEANE: OK.
MACCALLUM: Thank you very much. General, good to see you.
So, we just showed you a bit of the Ainsley Earhardt's interview with President Trump, and you can catch the rest of it tomorrow morning at 6:00 a.m. on "Fox & Friends". We'll look forward to that.
In the meantime, new details on what is now a nationwide manhunt for a suspect allegedly killing at random and streaming it online. We will have all the breaking details for you this evening. An update on that case is straight ahead.
Plus, ugly protests across the country, some turning violent, all over the president's tax returns over the weekend, as we ask the question, do most Americans actually care about the president's tax returns? We'll show you the brand-new numbers on that straight ahead.
And up next, under President Trump, immigration arrests are on the rise. We will show you the numbers. We'll break down what's going on out there on the border and here at home as well. Judge Napolitano joins us in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: What would you say to the American family that loses their jobs, their income, or their loved one, because America refused to uphold its laws and defend its borders?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: Time now for "100 Days" update. Last week, we looked at the huge changes that we've seen in the Justice Department so far under Jeff Sessions. So tonight, Homeland Security goes under the microscope. So, how are they doing so far in the first 100 days under President Trump's leadership? The number of immigration arrests has spiked. DHS Secretary John Kelly says that the department now has tougher rules.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KELLY, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: It is fair to say that the definition of criminal has not changed, but where on the spectrum of criminality we operate has changed.
CHUCK TODD, NBC "MEET THE PRESS" HOST: So, can you give me an example of somebody that wasn't deported before that you are deporting now?
KELLY: Well, someone, as an example, with multiple DUIs, even a single DUI depending on other aspects, would get you into the system. And remember, for the most --
TODD: And this wouldn't have been the case under the -
KELLY: Unlikely.
TODD: -- previous administration.
KELLY: But you have to remember that there's a system, a legal justice system in place. And the law deports people. Secretary Kelly doesn't. ICE doesn't. It's the United States, you know, criminal justice system or justice system that deports people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, here to take us through this, Adam Housley in our west coast newsroom.
ADAM HOUSLEY, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CORRESPONDENT: Martha, these statistics start the day, President Trump took office and go through mid-March. They aren't as high as we saw on 2014 under President Obama when nearly 30,000 illegal immigrants were arrested but they are up.
According to ICE numbers, more than 21,000 illegal immigrants were arrested between January 20th and March 13th of this year. That's up about 5,000 from the same period last year. ICE says nearly three quarters of those arrested had criminal records. But those taken into custody with no criminal record doubled from last year to more than 5,000.
While those numbers are higher, take a look at President Obama's first couple of months back in2014. The number of non-criminal arrests was: nearly 75,000. Those numbers went down during Obama's last two years in office, as the Department of Homeland Security changed its policy to only go after the so-called "worst of the worst," or illegal immigrants charged or convicted of serious crimes like murder, assault, child abuse.
Secretary Kelly, in the meantime, has reiterated that now, ICE does not do sweeps of illegal immigrants and is keeping the focus on criminals.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Just because you are in the United States illegally doesn't necessarily get you targeted. It's got to be something else. And we are operating more or less at the other end of the spectrum. And that is criminals, multiple convictions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOUSLEY: The areas with the highest numbers were in Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta, where they reported more than 2,000 arrests. As for deportations, they are down by about a percent, but, of course, that process takes a bit longer.
So, Martha, immigrant advocates as you might imagine, here in California and others in sanctuary cities across the country, continue to suggest that the increase in arrests is leading to a decrease in Latinos reporting crimes, like sexual assaults, for fear they could be targeted for deportation, but there are no firm study so far that show that. Martha?
MACCALLUM: Our thanks to Adam. Joining us now, Fox News Senior Judicial Analyst, Judge Andrew Napolitano. Judge, what do you make of that report?
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO, FOX NEWS SENIOR JUDICIAL ANALYST: You know, it shouldn't be newsworthy that the government is enforcing the law. But it is newsworthy because this government is so profoundly different from the previous government. The previous government took every opportunity at code, whether it's out of a sense of compassion, or a belief that immigrants help the economy, or whatever was motivating President Obama to look the other way in the face of illegal, who as you just heard John Kelly, the secretary of Homeland Security say, either committed a crime here and went to jail, or committed a crime and didn't yet go to jail. Both of which can trigger automatic deportations. So, it is newsworthy when the government enforces the law, and that's exactly what's happening.
MACCALLUM: So, you are saying that presidents should not use what President Obama called was "prosecutorial discretion".
NAPOLITANO: I'm saying that -
MACCALLUM: The president can't decide when they will or will not enforce the law, the law is the law and it has to be enforced by the president, that's his job.
NAPOLITANO: So, the president took an oath faithfully to execute his job. James Mattis then put the word "faithfully" in the oath to remind president they might have to enforce laws with which they disagree. We have given candidly, not just Barack Obama but all presidents, too much discretion. Their job is -- congress' job is to write the law, their job is to enforce the law. If they don't like enforcing the law, they should get a new job. There's a whole swath of immigration laws that Barack Obama chose not to enforce. He made the mistake of reducing to writing what he was going to - what he was not going to enforce. That writing was challenged. It was invalidated by the federal courts but he still didn't enforce the law even after the federal courts told him he had to.
MACCALLUM: I want to ask you, sort of, big picture here about the tone of what we are seeing because I find it very interesting, you know, watching Chuck Todd interview Secretary Kelly, who is very widely respected.
NAPOLITANO: Yes.
MACCALLUM: He has been in the military. He lost his son in the Iraq war. This is a person who is thoughtful and this is a person who said to Chuck Todd in his interview, you know, these numbers are dramatically down in terms of people coming off across the border in part because the president has changed the tone --
NAPOLITANO: Right. And that is --
MACCALLUM: -- of this and that's a very powerful thing that doesn't hurt anyone.
NAPOLITANO: That is probably the best thing that Donald Trump has done. It doesn't cost the government a nickel. It doesn't cost blood, sweat, or tears. It doesn't disrupt families. It just makes people from outside the United States say, "You know what? It's not the same there anymore. I'm not going to go. I'm not going to try to get in." It actually saves us money when he changes the tone. I was very happy to hear Secretary Kelly remind Chuck Todd, it is not a crime to be here illegally and we are not necessarily after you if you are here illegally. We are here - we are after you if you are here illegally and you have committed a crime here. Those are the people we want to deport. That's exactly what Donald Trump promised they would do during the campaign.
MACCALLUM: He called it "here illegally plus," meaning, just being here is not enough to get yourself in trouble. It has to be that plus. And a DUI is -- you know, people are going to say "Oh, you know, it's horrible, that's too low a crime." You know, what we have found is that people who have killed people with their cars have often had two, three, four DUIs before it happened. So --
NAPOLITANO: Let me back up what General Kelly said. There was a time when you had to commit a felony in order to be deported. Congress lowered it to a lower class of behavior. Congress decided what the law is. General Kelly is just enforcing the law that Congress wrote.
MACCALLUM: You do not like that. Judge Napolitano doesn't like anybody doing that. Thank you, judge. Good to see you --
NAPOLITANO: Pleasure to be with you.
MACCALLUM: -- as always. Thank you for being here.
NAPOLITANO: Of course.
MACCALLUM: All right.
So also, tonight, it has been 30 years since we have really touched the tax code in this country, as you know, on tax day, because you probably plowed through the pages of it yourself. And now, it may take a little bit longer to get that promised relief from the White House. So, what is going on with this? The treasury secretary is giving a hint. Wall Street may not be too happy in the long run, although, the numbers are pretty good today. We're going to talk to Marc Thiessen and Mo Elleithee, and they will give us their thoughts on that.
Plus, anti-Trump tax day rallies took major cities by storm this weekend. Violence breaking out. "Where is all of this headed?" is the big question here in America. Congressman Pete Hoekstra says they are grasping at straws and (INAUDIBLE) is here to debate, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't want your tax returns. They may not tell the whole story but they will shed light of what we need to know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: Some new details tonight, after tens of thousands of tax day protesters, some turning to violence, marched on major cities across the country this weekend. They are calling on President Trump to release his tax returns. The president took notice, tweeting this yesterday, "Someone should look into who paid for the small organized rallies yesterday. The election is over!" he wrote. Organized, yes, but rallies at U.C. Berkeley were far from peaceful. Protesters at that school, once again, turning violent, drawing over 200 police in some areas to the scene. Jonathan Hunt has the latest on happened from our west coast newsroom. Hi, Jonathan.
JONATHAN HUNT, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Martha. The clamor for President Trump to release his full tax returns has only grown as this year's delayed tax deadline approaches. But the message from the White House remains that the president won't release his returns while he's under audit and maybe won't release them even after that, according to this exchange in the White House briefing room today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it time to say once and for all the president is never going to release his tax returns?
SPICER: We'll have to get back to you on that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want - I mean, is he going to be thrilled really -
(CROSSTALK)
SPICER: No, I said I'd have to get back to you on that. I think he's still under audit, the statement still stands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Over the weekend, thousands took to the cities across America demanding the president's tax returns be made public. The majority of the marchers and cities like Washington and New York were peaceful. But in Berkeley, California, it got ugly quickly, when pro and anti-Trump protesters clashed. About 200 people in total were in a city park where the fights broke out. The violence on the anti-Trump side seemed to be led by those dressed in the all black, semiofficial uniform of the left-wing black block.
It was also clear to Fox staff on the scene that protesters on both sides threw punches, aim kicks, and use makeshift weapons. Police in Berkeley, Martha, said they have made 20 arrests as of earlier today and expect to make more as they review social media and security camera video. Martha?
MACCALLUM: All right. We'll see if they cracked down. Jonathan, thank you.
Joining us now, retired congressman, Pete Hoekstra, served as the Trump campaign's national security adviser, and Emily Tisch Sussman is the campaign director at the Center for American Progress Action Fund. Welcome to both of you.
So there's two sides to this really, sort of the tax issue that they're protesting over. And then, there's the nature of these protests. And let's look at this -- let's go to that first, if we can. Let's pull up this quote from David French today in the National Review, which sort of points out the scariness of what is going on in some of these situations. He writes, police struggle to control the violence and often appeared completely absent as brawls broke out across entire city blocks. He goes on to say, we are now teetering on the edge of a truly terrifying incident. One trigger pull away from slaughter, according to David French. Now, as Jonathan Hunt pointed out, Emily, most of these protests were peaceful. But we have seen sort of the heat that exists on both sides, he rightly points out. Does this concern you?
EMILY TISCH SUSSMAN, CAMPAIGN DIRECTOR AT THE CENTER FOR AMERICAM PROGRESS ACTION FUND: Look, people are passionate, and that's the reason that over 200,000 people at about 48 states were marching over the weekend to say to Trump release your tax returns. People have the right to know. They're passionate because people are OK if the fact the president is rich. Look, they know the president is rich. What they want to know is where his interests. If he's going to take up tax reform, which he says he's going to, they want to know if he's going to benefit and whose interests he's working on behalf of.
MACCALLUM: There is passion and then there's beating people in the face, which what we saw in Berkeley. Nobody wants to take away anyone's right to peacefully protest, but the fact of the matter is that these people are breaking the law, they're assaulting people, and it's happening on both sides. I mean, if you allow this to continue, Pete, you're going to be a nation that looks like something we've seen before, and it's not pretty.
PETE HOEKSTRA, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: No, it's not very pretty at all. There is really no reason or excuse for violence from either side. But the bottom line is, you know, saying this is a protest about the president not releasing his tax returns. No, this is much deeper than that. They're trying to fabricate an issue because right now, Donald Trump was on a roll. The economy is doing well, he is dealing with the messes on foreign policy that he's inherited from President Obama, whether it's Syria, Libya, or North Korea, he's dealing with those. The only reason that health care is on the agenda is because ObamaCare is imploding. So, you know, tax day protests, no. This president is on a roll and they want to make sure that they can do anything and everything that they can to derail this president for moving forward successfully.
MACCALLUM: When you thing about the North Korea story that we just reported, and you think about the Coptic Christian churches in Egypt there being bombed and I think to myself, I understand if people would like to see the tax returns. But there are serious things going on in the world that protesters could be attached during their passion too, Emily, don't you think it's a little odd that this is what they're so worked up about?
SUSSMAN: Look, I think what they're worked up about is understanding where the presidents pressure points are. It's very clear that he does not have one doctrine that he follows, and that he acts on emotion. And so we should understand where his financial interests are tied into. I do think that's important. I think it's the underpinning of our democracy. They already said they're not going to release the logs of who is going in and out of the White House. That is the underpinning of democracy. We should be passionate about this.
MACCALLUM: All right. So why not turn it all over? Why not put the logs out there, Pete? Why not be as transparent as possible?
HOEKSTRA: Well, I mean the president has turned over all his financial documents that are required by law, if congress believes there is a need for people to turn over more information, you know, they can demand it. The president is under audit as he continues to point out. I've dealt with the IRS and some of these agencies. If I were under investigation or under audit, I wouldn't provide any information beyond what was required because of how these agencies operate in those types of things. The key thing here are the major issues, Martha, as you pointed out, that we need to deal with. The threat from North Korea, the situation in the Middle East, the crisis in ObamaCare and health care, yeah, let's do tax reform. And regardless of what this is tax reform is going to be measured as to whether it's good for the American people, whether it's good for the economy, and it really doesn't matter whether it's good for Donald Trump or not.
MACCALLUM: All right, guys, thank you so much. Great to see you both tonight.
HOEKSTRA: Thank you.
SUSSMAN: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So tomorrow, President Trump heads to Wisconsin. He's hitting the road again. One of the states that he flipped from blue to red this past November and he would like to keep it that way. Sean Duffy, the congressman from there, will join us in just a moment. He's here with a preview. Plus, all eyes on Georgia's sixth district. This is a race to watch, as the polls get very tight in a district that Newt Gingrich lead and Tom Price after him.
Also, Marc Thiessen, Mo Elleithee, there they are. They'll be here coming up next. And the FBI is hunting tonight for this man, who allegedly killed randomly and put it up on Facebook. The details of the nationwide ongoing manhunt that is happening right now, straight ahead, we'll tell you the latest when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: This individual is armed and dangerous and, quite frankly, at this point, he could be a lot of places. He could be nearby. He could be far away, anywhere in between.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: Some news today on tax reform, as the president's attempt at the first tax overhaul in three decades may hit a bit of a speed bump. President Trump's Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin is pumping the brakes on that idea a little bit, signaling that we will not see the changes by August, which at one point in an interview with the Financial Times, he had suggested that timeline. Although, at that point, many others believed that it was kind of impossible to pull that off. Our own John Roberts says that perhaps the White House was relieved and maybe there was some coordination to try to, you know, get that backed off on a little bit.
Joining me now, Marc Thiessen, serve as speechwriter for President George W. Bush, and Mo Elleithee is founding executive director of Georgetown's institute of politics and public service. Both are Fox News contributors.
We want to ask them about the -- let me get your thoughts on this, first, because tax reform, when you talk to people and when we travel around the country over the course of the campaign and in the first 100 days, tax reform is one of people's number one things that they want to see, Marc, so is this a problem?
MARC THIESSEN, FORMER SPEECHWRITER FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: It is a problem. And I'm not surprised that they're backing off for that August date. They've got a trifecta of problems which is a lack of momentum, a lack of revenue, and a lack of unity. So momentum, when they fail to pass ObamaCare -- politics is a sport of momentum, right? And so, when that was a big momentum killer when they fail to pass ObamaCare repeal, at the same time it's a lack of revenue. There's $100 trillion in ObamaCare taxes that was supposed to be repealed as part of the ObamaCare repeal that now we don't get to use for tax reform. You have to fund tax reform if you want to cut the rate as Paul Ryan wants to do from 35 to 20 percent. You've got to come up with money. That's $100 trillion of the table. The border adjustment which is another way he wants to pay for it, that's a way to get foreign trading partners to produce revenues for us that subsidizes our tax reform. It has no support in the senate. It was those two things, you don't have the revenue, and then lack of unity. The White House, the house, and the senate, are all on completely different pages as to what they want to do. If they can come together, you only need Republican votes to pass tax reform, but if all three branches that have Republicans in charge can't agree, you're not going to get anything.
MACCALLUM: This is making Mo very unhappy. He doesn't like this picture at all, do you, Mo?
MO ELLEITHEE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I love when Marc and I agree. I can't find anything to disagree with them on. Look, you know, back in December, we accept his election, Donald Trump, if you ask the American people what they thought was his ability to work with congress, 61 percent thought he could do it. Today, that same question in the same poll is at 46 percent, and we're seeing why. Marc's right. Republicans have total control of government. They can pass ObamaCare repeal, they can pass tax reform, but the president inability to bring together the warring factions within his own party and cut a deal on ObamaCare is now putting the tax reform position in real jeopardy. And you hear Republicans on the hill saying tax reform is likely going to be harder to pass out of congress than ObamaCare repeal was.
MACCALLUM: If they want to keep winning they're going to have to pass some of this stuff. And I want to talk to you very quickly and get a thought from each of you on the Georgia race, which everybody is watching. This is Tom Price's seat, now head of HHS. It was Newt Gingrich's seat before that. But it was tighter than Republicans wanted it to be in the last election, and they're a bit worried about it, right, Marc?
THIESSEN: Absolutely. But, look, the Democrats are desperate for a win here. And they think this is where they're going to pick it up. So they've poured $8.3 million, that's million with an M, into a single special congressional special election, 97 percent of that money is from outside of the state. It is not Georgians coming around to do this. And despite all of that spending, this Democrat is only at 45 percent. He's three points behind where Hillary was.
MACCALLUM: But if they don't share, Marc, if they can win they're going to have that momentum that you've talked about a moment ago.
THIESSEN: They will. That's true.
MACCALLUM: Speaking of momentum, Mo?
ELLEITHEE: I think that's right. I think if Democrats can pull this off -- and, look, it's a tough district, right? I mean, Tom price has won this district by double digits for years. Donald Trump only won it by a point. And when you coupled the momentum and the energy you're seeing in Georgia, with this surprisingly close election in Kansas, in that special election last week, there's something going on out there. Now, Democrats eventually have to translate some of this momentum into a win. But there's some sort of grassroots energy out there right now that Democrats are right to try to harness and all of these special elections leading up to 2018.
MACCALLUM: Thank you very much, you guys. We'll be watching. Good to see you tonight.
THIESSEN: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So still ahead, the shocking murder of an elderly man that was uploaded, the murder was uploaded to Facebook. Tonight, the man behind that killing is out there somewhere and he may have crossed state lines at this point. We'll bring you up to speed on that, coming up.
Plus, President Trump is going to hit the road again. He's heading to Wisconsin, based on the fears that we've just discussed in the last segment. Congressman Sean Duffy will be joining him out there, his preview coming up next.
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MACCALLUM: Some can say that President Trump is sort of going back to a happy place. He's hitting the road tomorrow. He goes back to Wisconsin. He enjoyed his time there on the campaign trail and it paid off for him on election night. He's going to visit the manufacturer Snap-On Incorporated. So what is the goal of this visit? To reiterate, to repeat a campaign call to buy American and to hire Americans, a message than then candidate Trump delivered to the people of Wisconsin just one week before the big day.
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TRUMP: America has lost 70,000 factories because their politicians that don't know what they're doing or they're controlled by their special interests. A Trump administration will stop the job from leaving America and we will stop the job from leaving Wisconsin. We'll work with your governor who is a great, great governor, and we're going to stop it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: And he won in Wisconsin, as was famously said many times, Hillary Clinton didn't go to Wisconsin, and Donald Trump absolutely did and it worked for him. He flipped 23 Wisconsin counties from Democrat to Republican. You're looking at them on the screen right now. He was the first to win the badger state since Ronald Reagan back in 1984.
Here now, Wisconsin congressman, Sean Duffy, who will be with President Trump during tomorrow's visit. Is he trying to shore up those counties in the face of, as we just discussed a little while ago, health care that didn't get through, tax reform that is now delayed, does he need to shore up his base?
REP. SEAN DUFFY, R-WIS.: Well, first off, Martha, you're right. This is a happy place for Donald Trump. He flipped it for the first time in 32 years. So, I think it's coming back to not only tell the Wisconsin voters, listen, I'm fighting for you, I'm working for you, but I also want to listen to you. He's going to do a tour of Snap-On, listen to the employees as he looks at the work that they do as a great American company. But I think more broadly speaking in Wisconsin, one out of every six of our jobs are manufacturing jobs. And making sure that we've got a good trade deals in place that will shore up our American workers is key. Now, one of the things he's going to talk about tomorrow, there's been a little foreshadowing, he's going to talk about the guest worker program and how we can bring in guest workers who compete with American workers and drive down the wages. Now there are some spaces in our economy, especially in Wisconsin, where we need guest workers like in our farm industry. But to some higher skilled labor that we don't need those guest workers coming in, and this is another signal that Donald Trump has given to the Wisconsin worker and the American worker, I got your back, I'm looking out for you. And what I think is needed about this, Martha, usually you have, you know, Democrats and Republicans leaders who pander to the business community or they'll pander to the worker community. Donald Trump is working for both of them. He sees as if American businesses are doing well. They have more money in their coffers. They can pay their employees more money. Give them a little extra cash to scratch off their budgets at their kitchen table. So, he's coming to listen, but also talk to them about his vision for taking American manufacturing.
MACCALLUM: Yeah. I mean, when you think about the fact that he had union leaders come to the White House and he did well or a lot better with those groups then any Republicans had for quite some time. But those voters are going to be hearing from Democratic leadership over and over. And they're going to say, look, he's not doing what he promised, you don't -- your wages haven't gone up. You don't have a job where you didn't -- you haven't gotten a job in the past 100 days. So he has got to fight against those messages and it's going to start happening pretty soon.
DUFFY: The Wisconsin unemployment rate is basically a point below the national average. So people are going back to work. Now, they do need some better revenue coming in, they need a pay hike. But you'll see protests tomorrow at this rally, the resist movement. But they also try that with Scott Walker. The Democrats are going to rally against Donald Trump and his effort to help the American and Wisconsin family out. And they're tone-deaf on this stuff, Martha. And so, I look forward to coming back -- I come from a rural part of the state that actually was the highest flipped for Donald Trump. And they like when people come and hear them out and hear their concerns, they know that they don't sit in that oval office isolated.
MACCALLUM: Thank you very much. We'll see it goes. We'll be watching. Thanks for being here tonight. In the meantime, there is this manhunt that we've been talking about really since the weekend. And a huge reward has been announced just a couple of hours ago for this suspect who is on the loose. Mike Tobin will tell us the breaking news on that story tonight next.
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MACCALLUM: Active manhunt underway for this man seen in this video that was posted on Facebook, moments before he gunned down an elderly man and broadcasted it on the internet. Mike Tobin joins us live tonight from Chicago. Mike?
MIKE TOBIN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Martha. Police say there is no doubt that Steve Stephens is armed. He should be considered dangerous. The reward is up to $50,000. The search area is the entire nation. It has been more than 24 hours since that video was posted to Facebook, appearing to show Steve Stephens select a random stranger walking down the street in Cleveland, and kill him in cold blood. He left in a white 2016 Ford Fusion. Police say they've seen nothing like an abandon vehicle or one that was stolen to indicate that Stevens is driving anything different. Police are imploring him to turn himself in.
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UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Steve, if you're out there listening, call someone, whether it's a friend, or family member, or pastor, give them a call because they're waiting on you to call them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TOBIN: The victim, 74-year-old Robert Godwin, Sr., was out collecting cans. His family released these photos to our Fox affiliate in Cleveland, saying this is how they wanted him remembered, not those final terrified and bewilder moments before a stranger gunned him down. Now Facebook issued a statement saying they need to do a better job reviewing violent and otherwise objectionable material. Martha?
MACCALLUM: All right. Mike, thank you very much, tough story. And now to something much lighter, we will leave you with a quote of the night. Earlier today, the much discussed 139th annual Easter egg roll took place at the White House. Always fun to watch the president next to the bunny, who apparently now needs glasses. The president's address the children and it's fair to say that he did not speak down to them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We will be stronger and bigger and better as a nation than ever before. We're right on track. You see what's happening and we are right on track.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: That's funny, right? Thanks for watching, everybody. Have a great tonight. I'm Martha MacCallum. We'll see you right back here tomorrow at 7:00. "The O'Reilly Factor" is up next.
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