This is a rush transcript from "Media Buzz," September 22, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
HOWARD KURTZ, HOST: On the Buzz Meter this Sunday: House Democrats grilled Corey Lewandowski. The hearing turns into a debacle and the president's ex-campaign campaign manager taking lumps for lying it's all lie to lie to the media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COREY LEWANDOWSKI, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I have no obligation to have a candid conversation with the media whatsoever just like they have no obligation to cover me honestly. And they do it inaccurately all the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: My interview with Corey Lewandowski, likely Senate candidate is coming up.
A media explosion over "The Wall Street Journal" reporting that President Trump pressed the leader of Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden and his son. Trump calling it fake news and a witch hunt and saying he did nothing wrong.
Is the press overreacting without all the facts?
The New York Times is still being pummeled over its botched story on Brett Kavanaugh, the one that happened to live out at a supposed victim of alleged sexual assault doesn't remember any such incident and Donald Trump is the leading critic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I call for the resignation of everybody at the New York Times involved in the Kavanaugh smear stalling, they've taken the old great lady and broken her down, destroyed her virtue and ruined her reputation.
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, MSNBC: I could not believe the New York Times would write this piece without that information contained in it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was zero intent to mislead anybody about the details of the incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: As the Times reporters blame their editors the stories flaws haven't stopped some Democrats from demanding the justice be impeached.
I'm Howard Kurtz, and this is "Media Buzz."
President Trump has repeatedly unloaded on the New York Times over its story alleging another long-ago sexual assault incident involving Brett Kavanaugh.
As we reported when we came on the air last week, two-time journalist made the charge of incident exposure based on the source who wouldn't talk to them and leaving out the crucial fact in their book which is that the alleged victim at the drunken Yale party not only wouldn't comment but has told friends she doesn't remember such an incident.
The president at one point, tweeting that at the Times should close its doors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think the New York Times made another terrible mistake. It's a shame that a thing like that could happen. How can they do a thing like that and destroy somebody's life?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Reporters Robin Pogrebin and Kate Kelly say they included the information, and blamed the editors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, somewhere in the editing process those words were trapped?
KATE KELLY, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes. So, I think it was just sort of an editing, you know, done in the haste in the editing process. And we certainly never intended to misled in any way. We wanted to give a full story as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Joining us now to analyze the fallout for the Times and for journalism, Mollie Hemingway of the Federalist, a Fox News contributor and co-host of "Justice on Trial: The Kavanaugh Confirmation and the Future of the Supreme Court." Beverly Hallberg, president of District Media Group, and Philippe Reines, former State Department official under Hillary Clinton.
Now, Mollie, obviously you co-authored a book with what's a more favorable portrayal of Justice Kavanaugh, what's your view of the Times reporters' level of proof in making this accusation of another long ago sexual assault incident, and also do you buy the explanation that editors just happened to cut that key information from the newspaper story in heist?
MOLLIE HEMINGWAY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, first off on whether I buy that explanation, those same reporters gave an interview on NPR where they omitted that information, went out of their way to omit the information, and NPR had to edit in a clarification.
So, this idea that we can just blame editors for what was clearly something coming from the reporters I think is inappropriate. But Carrie Severino and I our book, we interviewed more than a 100 people, we fact-checked everything, we got multiple sources for everything that we went with.
And, yes, we do care about rule of law and presumption of innocence. But we tried really hard to get the facts right and I think that's very important.
This shows kind of the corruption of our media right now, they fix it on a target and they try to destroy that person and they will omit key information, they will get facts wrong, they will do whatever it takes to construct a narrative rather than just report facts.
KURTZ: Philippe, some other news organizations were critical of the Times handling of this because if a story is based on an incident as an alleged victim, the wrong party a woman who is presumably traumatized, and not only she has no comment but tells friends she doesn't remember this happening, the question is, is that even a story.
PHILIPPE REINES, MANAGING DIRECTOR, BEACON GLOBAL STRATEGIES: Well, I think probably the outlet that has been harshest on the New York Times has been the New York Times including its own reporters, you showed the clip of basically the reporters throwing their editors under the bus.
Look, the Times screwed up here, there is no doubt about that.
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: They are defending themselves, obviously.
REINES: They are defending themselves but the Times screw up here. And my interaction with them over the years has been there's no single editor, Times has a very bad habit of looking at things depending on where they are in the paper, they look at things on the front page differently than they do something that's in the weekend section that's promoting a book.
The question is should they really be promoting a book of -- to their reporters. If they are --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: It's common in the media.
REINES: I know it's common.
KURTZ: Yes.
REINES: It doesn't make it right.
KURTZ: OK.
REINES: Should they be looking at those the same way they look at news articles? And clearly, they didn't. And this the problem the Times has where their reporters expressed opinions that are different and out of the line of typical editorial standards.
So, but let's not forget, Brett Kavanaugh is not winning any kind of man of the year award, so the notion that the Times is --
(CROSSTALK)
HEMINGWAY: I'm sorry, what does that mean?
REINES: It means that there are a lot of open-ended issues from his testimony. You are quoting -- hold on, you are quoting the part in the book where it says thirdhand that the people -- that the women said she doesn't say it happened.
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: Because that's what got all the --
REINES: But there are third people that -- there are thirdhand people that say that other things happened. But when those people are cited as third people they're not valid. You can't have it both ways.
BEVERLY HALLBERG, PRESIDENT, DISTRICT MEDIA GROUP: Well, even on this, I just want to point out, it's not all the liberal media or mainstream media that are falsely reporting this. You even had, I want to read this, Jan Crawford from CBS tweeted, that there was a real bombshell in this book, and that's Christine Blasey Ford's close high school friend who, apparently, Ford said was there.
It said, Ford story is not believable and told the FBI Ford's allies pressured her and threaten her with this smear campaign. That is the real bombshell. That was buried in this opinion piece altogether.
What I think this comes down to, is that New York Times know who their readers are. The New York Times has certain bias against Justice Kavanaugh purely because they think his perspective on issues especially on the Supreme Court are a threat to their progressive ideology, so that's why they are pushing this opinion out there.
KURTZ: Let me just explain to viewers. The Deborah Ramirez is the woman who after searching her memory for six days decided that there was an incident, she claimed to the New Yorker which Kavanaugh exposed himself at the Yale party 35 years ago.
And her close friend LeLand Kaiser, and I think you wrote about this as well, Mollie, but is on the record with this new book which is "The Education of Brett Kavanaugh: An Investigation," is saying she does not believe her friend's account.
HEMINGWAY: Right. So, Leland Kaiser is Christine Blasey Ford's friend. And we reported in "Justice on Trial" that she did not -- she grew to lack confidence in her friend's story.
And this new book actually does have some explosive new details including how people -- people who knew her tried to coerce her into changing her testimony. But this, what I'm talking about here is, you know, we are being told based on no reason at all that Brett Kavanaugh is not going to win man of the year, that's what I'm talking about.
These media narratives, where they decide to tar someone who actually does have an extremely good reputation built up over many decades from people who knew him in adolescence, college, law school, throughout his career and decide to make him into some evil person even though they don't have the evidence to back it up and even though the people who were supposed to witnesses for these allegations all say they don't support it.
HALLBERG: And even the Washington Post when it picks up on the story, they don't touch this --
(CROSSTALK)
REINES: But there's a real difference between saying 10 percent or 15 percent of what the New York Times said they got wrong and all of sudden saying zero percent about what has been reported about Brett Kavanaugh in his past, in his time are totally invalid. You can't jump from one to the other. It's a false equivalence.
HEMINGWAY: I'm actually not quite sure what you're saying but I literally wrote a book after interviewing more than a 100 people who knew him.
(CROSSTALK)
REINES: Are you pretending that every single bad word written about Brett Kavanaugh is made up by the media?
HEMINGWAY: I'm saying there is a larger issue in play about how the media takes sides and try to destroy political opponents.
REINES: Every word written about Brett Kavanaugh has been made up by the media?
HEMINGAY: I think the media have perpetrated a false hoax against someone as when they don't have the evidence to support it. Do I think everyone needs to support a given political person or Supreme Court candidate --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: All right. Let me jump in here, I have another question for you, Philippe. First of all, do you think the president is going over the top in saying, mass resignations at the New York Times, obviously he's upset with the story, or did the paper provide him with the ammunition?
And as long as you're answering that, should these 2020 Democratic presidential candidates have jumped out of the gate to call for Kavanaugh's impeachment based on a story that Times later had to correct?
REINES: I think those are different things --
KURTZ: Yes.
REINES: So, unpack them. The 2020 candidates, few of them sat on Senate judiciary last year and at the time they have been calling for a subsequent investigation about whether he perjured himself.
Do I think they all should at the same time said let's impeach him? It sounds that's a bit much. Second of all --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: The president --
HALLBERG: They haven't retracted it at all. It's been over a week and they haven't --
(CROSSTALK)
REINES: Hold on a second, Donald Trump says more in a course of a single rally that is wrong that should be retracted.
(CROSSTALK)
HEMINGWAY: So back to the New York Times. It is important to note that it took them a full day to correct even though they were notified. You said that --
(CROSSTALK)
REINES: My God, a full day.
HEMINGWAY: A full day.
REINES: You know how many things said on air that --
(CROSSTALK)
HEMINGWAY: OK. If I could finish.
REINES: -- are never corrected?
HEMINGWAY: If I could finish. It took a full day. That day was the day in which everything went wild with Kavanaugh impeachment. You mentioned it on your show at 11 a.m. what the facts were. It took them until nearly midnight to correct that.
So, this is a problem for the entire newspaper, and it's not even whether they get fired but what accountability will there be. These are -- this is a pattern of behavior going back years of this newspaper getting facts wrong, omitting key details, and instead of people being punished, it seems like they get promotions, raises and --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: Let me --
REINES: That's not a bias thing. The biggest flaps the New York Times has had in the last 20 years was weapons of mass destruction. They pretty much swallowed whole, George Bush and the Bush administration and Dick Cheney's presentation about there being nuclear biological and chemical weapons.
KURTZ: What is fascinating --
(CROSSTALK)
REINES: The Times get --
HEMINGWAY: So, hold them accountable.
KURTZ: What's fascinating to me --
REINES: I read the wrong end of that a lot.
KURTZ: Yes.
REINES: But that doesn't --
KURTZ: You didn't like the Hillary coverage. What's fascinating to me is that you both have serious issues in New York Times. But you come at it from different perspectives.
I want to turn to the, what the Times itself claims was an offensive tweet. I'm not even going to fully repeat it there. But it had to do with you in a party and you're confronted with male genitals.
That might seem like harmless fun where Robin Pogrebin, one of the co- authors of the Times piece and co-author of the book we're talking about acknowledged this week that she had written that tweet and here is what she had to say on The View.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBIN POGREBIN, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I drafted this with this in mind to have actually the opposite effect, which is to anticipate those who would say a guy pulling down his pants at a party when they are drunk isn't, you know, on the spectrum of sexual misconduct, it's not sexual assault, it's not rape. What's the big deal?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: I'm listening to this and I'm still thinking harmless fun, what was she thinking?
HALLBERG: Well, nobody was happy with this tweet, you even had Webster dictionary send out a tweet defining what harmless was. You also have people who were -- just didn't like the article in general and this tweet in general saying to focus more on the fact that the woman who alleged this was her pay and her she's more middle class and against the whole white privilege of Yale University.
And then, of course, those of us who think that this was a false allegation to begin with, so this tweet is just I think par for the course for these reporters who as they say in haste are sending out tweets and writing articles --
KURTZ: Right.
HALLBERG: -- that don't prove the facts.
KURTZ: In which happened to --
REINES: The New York Times should not be tweeting anything that they would not be putting in their paper.
KURTZ: And by the way --
REINES: It should be same standards. And they all the time get this wrong.
KURTZ: And by the way, I'm a newspaper reporter for many years. I insisted on reading the edited version of every story I ever wrote because sometimes mistakes and nuances would change and I would push back, that's what you do.
When we come back, the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal stories on a whistleblower complaint about President Trump making an unspecified promise to the leader of Ukraine. Do we know enough to justify all the media outrage?
And later, Corey Lewandowski on House Democrats threatening to hold him in contempt.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: The media world is on fire over Washington Post reports that an intelligence whistleblower has filed a complaint about President Trump making alarming promise to a specified foreign leader. Congress demanding the details.
And the Wall Street Journal now saying that Trump asked Ukraine's president to revive an investigation of Joe Biden and his son Hunter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president's defense, quote, "Is anybody dumb enough to believe that I would say something inappropriate with a foreign leader?"
Yes, Mr. President, unfortunately the answer is yes.
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: The corrupt lying, raged, and hate filled media mob they're out at it again spinning in circles for the last 24 straight hours they have, again, breathlessly, hysterically been echoing report from the Washington Post.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Biden called this an abuse of power while the president dismissed the story and denounced the media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's a partisan whistleblower, they shouldn't even have information. It's just another political hack job. That's all it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President --
TRUMP: It's another media disaster. The media has lost so much credibility in this country, our media has become the laughing stock of the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Mollie, the president said a moment later he doesn't know who the partisan whistleblower is. So, we had the first wave of outrage on the Washington Post story unspecified country, unspecified promise, but the Wall Street Journal story, I think, talking about this conversation between the two leaders and talk of a Biden investigation has really sent the story into the stratosphere.
HEMINGWAY: Sure. And we've also seen a lot of conflicting information in these different stories. So, the first story talks about a promise being made. The Wall Street Journal story says explicitly there was no demand for quid pro quo or anything like that.
So, I think we, first off, have a lot more that we need to learn about. Another thing though, is that it really speaks to how much the media blew their credibility by perpetrating this Russia story, where we were promised for years that there were these bombshell pieces of information that in the end would lead to definitive proof that Trump had colluded with Russia to steal the election.
That blew up in the media's face, they never took full responsibility for it and now they want to go on this Ukraine story.
KURTZ: Philippe, I think the Washington Post and Wall Street Journal stories are absolutely news, you do have a complaint, you do have efforts by Congress to find what happened.
Trump told reporters it didn't matter whether he talk about Biden with the Ukrainian president, that he said nothing inappropriate. Ukrainian foreign ministers now saying nothing wrong with the call.
Is this another potentially huge story, we're hearing the word impeachment again, that might not look so cataclysmic once we know all of the details.
REINES: I don't know once we know the details. But here's what we know. Donald Trump has not denied that he brought up Joe Biden to the foreign minister of Ukraine -- to the president of Ukraine.
KURTZ: The president of Ukraine.
REINES: That is not OK. Because unless Joe Biden said, hey, Donald, please send my best. There is no reason for Joe Biden's name to come up in that conversation once, twice, eight times, whether it's promising, threatening, quid pro quo, demanding whatever it is, that is crossing the line.
And, yes, there is a problem with that. And let's just say for a moment Hillary Clinton had won and Donald Trump was challenging her next year and we were talking about Hillary Clinton talking it to a foreign lead the other help her find dirt on one of the Trump kids, your heads would be exploding. Exploding.
HEMINGWAY: Philippe, it is entirely possible once we learn more that there will be something that was inappropriate about this, but it's not true just as a matter of course that you can't have these types of conversations.
(CROSSTALK)
REINES: What would you bring up Joe Biden to a foreign leader?
HEMINGWAY: Excellent question, Philippe.
REINES: I mean, there's no good reason.
HEMINGWAY: The reason why you bring up -- no. The reason why you bring up is because of the past issues with Ukraine and Hunter Biden. Hunter Biden who is not one someone who has a lot of expertise in this area became highly involved in Ukrainian energy company. There are all sorts of corruption issues involved. The New Yorker has written about it, I commend you -- I commend that you read that article.
KURTZ: Let me just mention that Hunter Biden made a lot of money as the vice president's son from this Ukrainian company. There was an investigation. It didn't find anything wrongdoing by Hunter Biden.
Rudy Giuliani has been talking about this publicly for months. In fact, we had a long conversation about it on this program back in April. Then he really got into it this week with CNN's Chris Cuomo. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: So, you did asked Ukraine to look into Joe Biden?
RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LAWYER: Of course, I did.
CUOMO: You just said you didn't?
GIULIANI: No, I didn't ask him to look into Joe Biden. I ask him to look into the allegations as it relates to my client, which tangentially involve Joe Biden in a massive bribery scandal. It is sad to watch what happened to you. It's sad.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Sad what would happen to me? I'm a sellout.
GIULIANI: You are a sellout. I'm going to tell you why.
CUOMO: You are telling me that I'm a sellout.
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: These are --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Who has help when he gets into that shouting match with Chris Cuomo?
HALLBERG: I'm not sure but I think we are all entertained by it, so maybe we're winners when we watch that. But what I find so fascinating about this story is that the story about Joe Biden and Hunter Biden's ties to the Ukraine is coming up, Joe Biden said that never happened. Yet there is a video out in his own words saying that he did ask the Ukrainian president at that time to fire someone and --
(CROSSTALK)
HEMINGWAY: The prosecutor was looking into the company --
HALLBERG: Exactly.
HEMINGWAY: -- that his son was part of it.
HALLBERG: So Joe Biden, the story of Joe Biden is the one that's on the forefront now, so some could say because we don't know what we don't know yet, we should know more Thursday when the intel I.G. is going before the House intelligence committee, but this could turn into eyes being on the story of Joe Biden and actually turning out worse for him.
KURTZ: Giuliani on Fox -- one second -- Giuliani on Fox News Sunday complained about the pro-Biden media which have covered this to some degree. We'll get into that more in the later segment.
But, Philippe, so, obviously, the effort by the president, by Rudy and by their allies is, whatever the president said to Ukrainian President, Zelensky, is not the story, the story is Hunter Biden and his ties and shouldn't even paid all this money and should Biden have threatened Ukraine with withholding $1 billion?
REINES: Well, that's why the answer to your question is that the winner here is Donald Trump. Now it's possible for Rudy Giuliani to lose because of that kind of performance, but who cares, he's not running for office.
KURTZ: Why is the winner Donald Trump?
REINES: The winner for Donald Trump is because we are spending as much time talking about Joe Biden and Ukraine and his son which by Rudy's own admission, he was trying six months to get into the public ether he couldn't. You know what, he has succeeded, this is fantastic for Donald Trump.
HEMINGWAY: That's why I also think we always need to be careful when we are using anonymous sources how we characterize them, this could be, I mean, we heard it call the whistleblower but actually the person was hearing hearsay, it could be some Trump official just trying to inject this into the conversation. We should always try to characterize all our sources carefully.
(CROSSTALK)
REINES: Let's be clear though. The Wall Street Journal is owned by the same people that own this table. Rupert Murdoch, yes, it's a public company. I know the routine. This is not like this came from, again, the New York Times or some what you would call liberal rag. Rupert Murdoch's paper is the one that's reporting --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: OK. But the Journal story was hardly helpful at least at this juncture to president Trump.
(CROSSTALK)
REINES: Because meaning it's true.
KURTZ: On that note, I got to go. Philippe Reines, Beverly Hallberg, and Mollie Hemingway, thanks very much for coming by this Sunday.
Ahead, did a chaotic House hearing where the president's ex-campaign manager helps or hurt the Democrats? We'll ask Corey Lewandowski.
But up next, look how many in the media stuck with the New York Times explosive allegation against Bret Kavanaugh even after the story was correct.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: Let me take you behind the scenes here, last Sunday morning when I told my staff that the New York Times story on Brett Kavanaugh was probably too thin for us to put it on the air given the magnitude of the sexual assault allegation.
But when I obtained pages of the book by the Times reporters, we tore up their show and led with it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KURTZ: Here is what the book says, she refuses to discuss the incident though several of her friends says she does not recall it. Now that was left out of what the New York Times published today.
If this happened, wouldn't she be very, very likely to recall it?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KURTZ: But most networks that day stuck with the narrative that the Times had uncovered stunning new evidence against the Supreme Court justice, either downplaying or simply not mentioning that the alleged victim could not remember him exposing himself at a long-ago Yale party.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh has been hit by a newly reported sexual misconduct accusation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: NBC News has confirmed there was another alleged incident of sexual misconduct reported to the FBI last year but that allegation was not investigated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not surprised. The reporters chorus on the book who (Inaudible) excerpts are very disturbing. There are, they seem to be credible allegations in this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: The media refrains were much the same the next morning with the addition of President Trump's tweets attacking the New York Times.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now with the growing questions this morning of that new report about Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh new sexual misconduct allegations when he was a college freshman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: When times reporter Robin Pogrebin and Kate Kelly appeared on that Monday's Today Show they were not asked about the glaring omission in their story although an anchor briefly mentioned it. By then the Times had posted its correction, an on MSNBC Joe Scarborough's reaction was very different.
SCARBOROUGH: I could not believe the New York Times would write this piece without that information contained in it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Another exception was CBS reporter Jan Crawford who played up the gaping hole in the Times account.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But late Sunday the Times issued a clarification, the female student declined to be interviewed and friends say she does not recall the incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: But the rush by several 2020 Democrats, Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, Kamala Harris to demand Kavanaugh's impeachment filled the network's coverage and turn the story's flaws into a footnote. In fact, when Rachel Maddow interviewed Senator Harris Monday night the MSNBC host didn't even mention the story's problem or the Times correction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL MADDOW, HOST, MSNBC: Do you think that inquiry itself in airing out these allegations getting to the truth of it is worth it no matter the political cost, if there is a political cost?
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, and I'll tell you why, Rachel. We are talking about a system of justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Eventually though, reality caught up with the coverage. By Wednesday, the Washington Post was running the story with this headline. "In whiplash moment, Democrats are now backing away from Kavanaugh allegations."
Ahead, much of the press clamoring for military action against Iran while the president explains his restrain. But first, Corey Lewandowski testified he has no obligation to be honest with the media. His response, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: Well, three cable news network went live with Corey Lewandowski testifying before the House judiciary as he refused to answer some questions and sparred with frustrated Democrats turning a hero into a fiasco.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COREY LEWANDOWSKI, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I'm sorry, Congressman, which page was it?
REP. JERROLD NADLER (D-NY): The clock should have been stopped and should remain stopped. Page 90, volume two.
LEWANDOWSKI: OK. Which paragraph, sir?
NADLER: I don't have it in front of me.
LEWANDOWSKI: Could you repeat the question? I didn't hear it.
REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D-TX): I would be happy to repeat the question.
LEWANDOWSKI: It's just a rant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Lewandowski told prosecutors he never acted on President Trump's request that he push Jeff Sessions to fire Bob Mueller but the panel played video of Lewandowski saying something very different to MSNBC's Ari Melber.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEWANDOWSKI: I don't ever remember the president ever asking me to get involved with Jeff Sessions or the Department of Justice in any way, shape or form.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: OK. So.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That wasn't true, was it, sir?
LEWANDOWSKI: I heard that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that was not trues, was it?
LEWANDOWSKI: I have no obligation to be honest to the media because they are just as dishonest as anybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: I spoke earlier with the president's former campaign manager from New Hampshire.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KURTZ: Corey Lewandowski, welcome.
LEWANDOWSKI: Thank you, Howie, thanks for having me.
KURTZ: Let's start with your declaration at the hearing, I have no obligation to be honest with the media because you consider them to be dishonest. Why should anybody who are watching on the airways from now on say well, maybe this time he's decided not to tell the truth?
LEWANDOWSKI: Well, Howie, as you know and what your listeners saw, that day was they took an eight-second video clip of me, completely out of context and they put it up on the screen and said, is this truthful? And what the video clip was of was me answering a question that I hadn't met with the special counsel yet.
And the reason I said that, Howie, is because my two times in front of the special counsel were shrouded in secrecy from the time they picked me up in government vehicle, to the way they brought me into the loading dock, to the secure facility we spoke in, I respect special counsel's request to try and keep their investigation outside the eye of the public.
And while I wasn't obligated to do that, I respect their opportunity to conduct their investigation in the manner that they wanted and I thought that it was only fair that I didn't disclose information that they didn't want publicly available.
KURTZ: So why didn't you deflect the question at the hearing with some version of that, instead, you know, you could have said that you were doing this, instead, you kind of chose to proclaim as badge of honor, no obligation to be honest with the media, you don't think they covered you fairly, are you like Donald Trump trying to perhaps win over voters who don't like the press?
LEWANDOWSKI: Well, look, Howie, as you know, many members of the media have now fallen in the same category as members of Congress for their dishonesty and their desire to have a true relationship.
And, look, just this week, Howie, we have seen how the New York Times covered the Kavanaugh issue with no one being fired, no accountability and we've seen this now so many times over the last four years that Donald Trump has been in office.
The media proclaims these things only to come out afterwards and say I guess they weren't true, but nobody ever gets fired. And I do think it's fair to remind people, you know, I was a private citizen, I offered to come to that congressional hearing without a subpoena. They chose to subpoena me anyways.
The hearing was supposed to start at 10. It starts at 1 o'clock. I accommodated them in every opportunity I could.
KURTZ: Well, I've interviewed you many times on this program and you're certainly adept at spinning but you've never misled me. But do you regret in the heat of the moment making this declaration that you feel like you need to tell the truth under oath but not to journalists.
LEWANDOWSKI: Howie, I regret the fact that I should have explained it better and specifically as it related to my tenure in front of the special counsel, but I did that out of respect for the special counsel and the investigative process and at the advice of council so that we didn't spend countless hours answering these questions in the public while the investigation continued.
KURTZ: You really got into it the next day with CNN's Alisyn Camerota who said, are you lying to me now? And then let's take a look at part of that exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Corey, if you want to ask the questions, you can become a journalist yourself --
(CROSSTALK)
LEWANDOWSKI: Are you a journalist or are you not?
CAMEROTA: Corey?
LEWANDOWSKI: I mean, is that what you are? Are you a journalist or are you a talking head?
CAMEROTA: Hey, Corey, listen, let me tell you something.
LEWANDOWSKI: Which one?
CAMEROTA: Corey, --
LEWANDOWSKI: Because I'm happy to answer your questions if they're honest and truthful.
CAMEROTA: You're not answer -- you're listening with your mouth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: What was your take away from that interview?
LEWANDOWSKI: You know, Howie, the first question out of Alisyn's -- the first words out of Alisyn's mouth through that interview were, Mr. Lewandowski refused to answer the majority of the committee's questions, that's a factual inaccuracy.
And if you want to be a political pundit and claim that, then that's fine. But don't pretend to be a journalist and then start with factual inaccuracies right off the bat.
And moreover, don't try and hold me to a standard that the CNN employees and contributors on held to they employ Andy McCabe who we know unequivocally by Inspector General Horowitz lied at least three times under oath, has criminal referral pending against him and is waiting for the grand jury in Washington, D.C. to indict him and they don't disclose that information before he comes on television.
So, as a guest on a television show they are trying to hold me to a different standard than their own employees and I think there's a shame of it and that's why they didn't want to talk about it.
KURTZ: Well, I work with Alisyn when she was here at Fox, I still don't think she's pretending to be a journalist. But obviously, you go on CNN, you are going to get a hard time.
Now look, at this judiciary hearing you were combative, no question about it. Chairman Jerry Nadler said he is considering holding you in contempt of Congress, Nancy Pelosi reported to have said she would have held you in contempt right there. Your response?
LEWANDOWSKI: Look, the House rules are the House rules and you can't hold me in contempt of Congress right there and Nancy Pelosi acknowledges much later.
I cannot control what the Democrat judiciary committee is going to do to me. I answered every question that I was allowed to, the only time I didn't answer a question was if it related to a private conversation between the president and myself or a senior member of his team and myself.
And that's because I have -- I don't hold the executive privilege. The president is the only one who can waive that privilege and the advice of the White House council they asked me to preserve that privilege.
If they want to hold me in contempt for answering questions for six hours, I think it's a very shameful, and there's nothing I can do about it but I think the American people will be outraged by it.
KURTZ: Washington Post says in a story, Lewandowski talked over lawmakers, dodged questions and made snide remarks. How do you plea?
LEWANDOWSKI: Howie, Howie, they said things to me that were pejorative and so disgusting. The only reason they get away with it is because they are Democrats. They call me a thug, a criminal, a member of the mafia. They spoke over me. They didn't give me the opportunity to answer the questions that they asked because they didn't want to treat me with the same respect.
But because I'm a conservative because I support Donald Trump and because they didn't want to hear there was no collusion, no obstruction, they decide today talk over me.
KURTZ: Finally, during the break in the hearing, you put up a web site that says, let's urge Corey to run for the Senate in New Hampshire. It looks to me like you're running, that you think that this hearing helped you in your potential run but I don't know whether a contempt of Congress citation might hurt you.
LEWANDOWSKI: You know, Howie, again, I can't control if Congress is going to hold me in contempt, I hope they don't. But look, if they do, the American people are going to see exactly how much of a charade this really is.
They have no interest in getting to the truth because the Mueller report already reported there was no collusion and no obstruction.
If they want to hold me in contempt for coming there and answering their questions, it might just propel me to launch my U.S. Senate campaign to make sure I can go to Washington, D.C. and change these rules and make sure no American has to go through what I just did.
KURTZ: I did get the impression that you're about to run. Corey Lewandowski, thanks very much for coming on.
LEWANDOWSKI: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KURTZ: Well, President Trump has been watching MEDIA BUZZ he just posted this on Twitter quoting Mollie Hemingway. "The New York Times is trying to make someone - Justice Kavanaugh, into an evil person when they don't have the information to back it up. It is a false hoax."
He goes on to say, "Zero people were fired at the Times. Why?"
That's just happening in real-time.
After the break, Joe Biden telling reporters they should be investigating Donald Trump as the uproar over that phone call with Ukraine shifts the spotlight to the former V.P.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: The white-hot media scrutiny of President Trump pressing Ukraine's president to investigate Joe Biden and his son Hunter. As first reported by the Wall Street Journal it has shifted the spotlight to the former vice president, reporters started asking him about a potential scandal that had faded after investigative reports by several news outlets.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You should be asking him the question, why is he on a phone with a foreign leader trying to intimidate a foreign leader if that's what happened, that's what appears that happened. You should be looking at Trump. Trump is doing this because he knows I will beat him like a drum. And he's using the abuse power in every element of the presidency to try to do something to smear me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Very animated Joe Biden.
Joining me here in Washington, Emily Jashinsky, culture editor at The Federalist, and in New York, Jessica Tarlov, a contributor to The Hill and a Fox News contributor.
Emily, Joe Biden bragged about the fact that he pressured Ukraine into firing its prosecutor at a time when there was an open case against this big gas company in which paid a lot of money to his son Hunter.
But should that overshadow the media allegations about the president and his alleged conversation with Ukrainian president to pursue an investigation of the Bidens?
EMILY JASHINSKY, CULTURE EDITOR, THE FEDERALIST: I actually think they can do. And I think this is what's happening, rise at the same time. Because the Biden allegations, this stuff still does not pass the smell test. There has been a lot of investigation into it and even with all the investigation it still doesn't pass the smell test, he's still going to have to answer for it.
At the same time and Mollie mentioned this earlier. It may to turn out that there is a there-there when it comes to this conversation. We still don't know. The details will unfold as the reporting continues. But at this point I think they are rising together and I see no problem with that frankly.
KURTZ: Jessica, the president said this morning that Joe Biden lied when he said he hadn't discussed this matter with his son Hunter because Hunter was quoted in the New Yorker saying that they had briefly discussed it once.
So, as the media pursue the question about this presidential phone call, they can hardly ignore the substance of what is alleged here to be some funny business involving the Bidens.
JESSICA TARLOV, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: But they haven't ignored it, they've completely debunked the original report out of the New York Times. Ken Vogel from the Times should be embarrassed about what's going on.
The Trump war room is now using him in a cable news hit as evidence that Joe Biden is guilty and the president is exonerated of that. That is a very bad position for the New York Times to be in.
And it does pass the smell test because when the prosecutor in Ukraine was fired, the case was already closed into the company that Hunter Biden had been on the board of. The timeline matters here. It also matters that the state --
(CROSSTALK)
JASHINSKY: Why was Hunter Biden making so much money?
TARLOV: Emily -- what?
JASHINSKY: Why was Hunter Biden making so much money?
TARLOV: Because Hunter Biden got a sweet job. And that certainly has to do --
(CROSSTALK)
JASHINSKY: He certainly has.
TARLOV: Yes. But that doesn't matter, that doesn't make Joe Biden guilty of something, it happened a year later and supported by our allies on this, first of all, to put pressure on President Poroshenko of Ukraine to fight the corruption in his country, the State Department backed it, the DOJ backed it.
This is dangerous that Joe Biden was absolutely correct to get up in reporters' faces and say you're asking the wrong questions.
KURTZ: All right, let me jump in here because the president tweeted over the weekend the fake news media wants to stay as far as possible from the Joe Biden story, but we did a search and found well over a dozen major stories in this.
TARLOV: Yes.
KURTZ: Let me just read you a few headlines. New York Times 2015, Joe Biden his son and case against Ukrainian oligarch. This is Bramley (Ph).
The Washington Post this year. As Vice President, Biden said Ukraine should increase gas production then his son got a job with the Ukrainian gas company. And the New Yorker this year. Will Hunter Biden jeopardize his father's campaign? So, it's not like the press has completely ignored this.
JASHINSKY: No, not at all. Actually, a lot of the reporting on the story has come from mainstream outlets. And I think it's been pretty solid.
On top of that I would say, the -- Biden is the media's least favorite of the major 2020 Democratic candidates, so it's as though he's getting a pass from the media on the story.
And I think that's why I said earlier that as this question about the call rises and the media's focus, I think this is going to continue to rise too because, again, of the major 2020 candidates, Joe Biden is the media's least favorite.
KURTZ: There's still a lot we don't know. And Jessica, you just alluded to this Trump posting a video mash-up of reporters for the New York Times, ABC, CNN, MSNBC talking about Hunter Biden and Ukraine, I think the president and the White House and Rudy Giuliani would like even more talk by the media about the focus being on the Bidens.
TALOV: That seems physically impossible just considering what I've been talking about in the past few days and what happened when this New York Times piece originally came out. I want to highlight that in that first piece in the 17th paragraph, that's pretty far down and an important story. That's when they said there's no evidence that Joe Biden did anything wrong.
This stinks like the Uranium One story which also came out at the New York Times. And, yes, Emily is completely correct, the mainstream media does not like Joe Biden, they are going after him in every which way here, but you need to be really careful about propping up fake scandals that are going to hurt people's careers for no reason.
KURTZ: Well, further investigation will determine whether it's a fake scandal. Rare moment of agreement though.
Let me get a break. John Bolton hitting the president on foreign policy. That didn't take long to leak, and the president punching back, that's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: We're looking at live pictures of President Trump coming down the stairway from Air force One. Ellington Field outside of Houston, Texas where he's being greeted by local dignitaries.
Days after being punished out of the White House, John Bolton had some harsh things to say at Manhattan luncheon and his comments quickly leaked to Politico.
He said, Trump sent a terrible signal by inviting the Taliban to Camp David which was disrespectful to 9/11 victims that negotiations with North Korea and Iran are doomed to failure, that by canceling a retaliatory air strike against Iran over the downing of that U.S. drone, Trump embolden Tehran to attack Saudi Arabia's oil facilities.
Reporters quickly ask the president to respond.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: John was not able to work with anybody and a lot of people disagreed with his ideas, and a lot of people were very critical that I brought him on in the first place because of the fact that he was in favor of going into the Middle East and he got sucked in quicksand. We became policemen for the Middle East, and that's ridiculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Emily Jashinsky, any question in your mind that John Bolton talking to 60 conservative donors at hotshots knew his sharp criticism of the president a lot would leak?
JASHINSKY: No. John Bolton is a media savvy guy and this was his way I think of airing his grievances without running directly to the press itself. John Bolton and Donald Trump aren't really saying about this departure that's in conflict with one another.
What it does do is further clarify the disagreements that they had which in and of itself further clarifies the president's foreign policy and it's kind of helpful.
KURTZ: Jessica Tarlov, Bolton was a little diplomatic, he didn't come on Fox News and say these things. But do you think he's joining the rides of - -
(CROSSTALK)
JASHINSKY Not yet.
KURTZ: -- not yet -- of ex-aides who are critical of Trump?
TARLOV: Do I -- sorry, do I think --
KURTZ: As he joined the ranks of ex-aides who have been turning on the president?
TARLOV: No, I put him on a higher level. John Bolton has had a very clear ideology which I want to make clear I have disagreed with for decades. We know exactly who he is, and frankly, it wasn't match-made in heaven from day one. If you have President Trump who --
KURTZ: Yes.
TARLOV: -- from the is early days in campaign trail has said I'm anti-war, I want to pull out, we don't need to be in the Middle East, Iraq was a mistake, Afghanistan, et cetera, hiring John Bolton is not going to mesh well with that kind of ideology.
KURTZ: All right.
TARLOV: So there's no surprise here.
KURTZ: Speaking of foreign policy, there been a lot of chatter and some criticism in the media of why the president hasn't launched some kind of military strike against Iran in response to the Saudi Arabia attack. Here is what he had to say?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When I was running everybody said, he's going to get into war, he's going to get into war, he's going to blow everybody up.
That's the easiest thing I could do. It's so easy. And for all of those who say, they should do it, it shows weakness, it shows actually in my opinion, it shows strength.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Emily, I think the president is right on this, that the media have this tilt that military action is the strong thing to do, U.S. must stand tall and that using restraint is weak. And he disagrees?
JASHINSKY: Yes. You know it's interesting because I think at this point post-Iraq there's a different between the establishment media, which I agree completely on that point does generally tend to favor hawkishness.
The new media is a little bit different but I think what we are seeing play out is that the establishment media is still the dominant force.
KURTZ: Jessica, the media consensus is that Trump is kind of conflicted, he likes to talk tough on foreign policy but he hesitates to pull the trigger?
TARLOV: Yes, well, we do have the most beautiful military of all time and, you know, he likes to talk about how much he's invested in and that we could win any war at any second which I have full faith in the men and women who serve this country in that capacity.
But the president, like just I said, doesn't want to go to war, that's absolutely correct. And there's a difference though on what happened here versus the incident with the American drone, and that we would be going to war essentially for Saudi Arabia and that's very different.
I understand John Bolton and a number of hawks' objection to what happened --
KURTZ: Right.
TARLOV: -- that there wasn't any retaliation earlier, but this is very different. And we are also taking the word of the Saudis who I know that they are, quote, unquote, "our allies" but they are a big bunch of liars and they killed our journalist from Washington Post Jamal Khashoggi.
KURTZ: All right. We've got to go. Of course. Well, you know, millions of Americans agree with the president on not rushing into war with Iran. I must say Emily Jashinsky and Jessica Tarlov --
(CROSSTALK)
TARLOV: Including me.
KURTZ: OK. We got to go.
That's it for this edition of "Media Buzz." I'm Howard Kurtz. Hey, check out my podcast "Media Buzz Meter." You can subscribe at Apple iTunes, Google Play or foxnewspodcast.com.
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