Wyoming Gov. Mark Gordon on plunge in oil prices
Oil shock continues as pandemic slams demand; reaction from Wyoming Gov. Mark Gordon.
This is a rush transcript from "Your World with Neil Cavuto," April 21, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: All right, so much on that, Bill, so much on the big powwow going on at the White House between Governor Andrew Cuomo and the president of the United States.
On the right of your screen, waiting for the Senate to take up that $484 billion stimulus or relief measure, whatever you want to call it. It looks like it's going to have an easy time of it in the Senate. In the House, where they still want to add some things on, we just don't know.
Very good to have all of you with us on a very busy news day. I'm Neil Cavuto. And this is YOUR WORLD.
And, yes, energy prices are still declining, and, yes, stocks were declining as a result, but it wasn't as crazy or freaky as it got yesterday, when we had negative prices for oil. Today, we came back a little bit.
But for stocks, the issue still seems to be that oil prices dropping can't be good for the economy going forward, because it must be telegraphing problems.
Now, with the whole coronavirus thing, it's not a debate about how much it's hurting the economy. The only surprise is how much it is hurting the price of oil. We're going to be getting to that in just a second.
For the time being, I want to just get a sense of what's happening at the White House and whether we will see the president and the governor together on tape, and soon. I don't know.
John Roberts might -- John.
JOHN ROBERTS, FOX NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Neil, it would take me a lot less time to tell you what's not going on at the White House, as opposed to what is going on at the White House, it's so busy here these days.
Governor Cuomo should be meeting with the president about now. Governor Cuomo, before leaving New York to come down here, saying that testing was going to be a big part of the conversation. It's been a big point of contention between the president and the governor, the governor saying that the federal government has to step in, President Trump saying, hey, it's not the federal government's role to do testing.
Things got quite heated between the two, President Trump on Twitter telling Cuomo to stop talking and start doing his job. Cuomo saying back to the president, get up -- get up off the couch, stop watching me on television, and go to work, until the other day, when Cuomo acknowledged that, yes, testing is the responsibility of the states, and that the president is right when he says that.
Yesterday, the vice president, Mike Pence, was on the phone with the nation's governors pointing out to them the excess capacity that the nation has for testing, identifying all of the state labs that are certified to test for coronavirus.
Today, though, Cuomo again, saying that the president's got a huge role to play in making sure that national suppliers are producing enough testing supplies and making sure that those supplies get out to the states.
Listen to how he put it today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): So I get the instinct to distance yourself from it, right? But it is a situation where you need everybody to work together, and you need to understand quickly who's in a better position to do what.
From my point of view, I think the federal government has to take that national manufacturer supply chain issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Now, the White House has in the last 48 hours moved to some degree to do that.
The president saying that he was going to invoke the Defense Production Act to produce those nasal swabs for coronavirus tests, as well as making sure that there were enough specimen test tubes to go out to the states.
The White House insisted there was currently enough testing capacity out there for all of the states, if they chose, to go to phase one of the reopening. But the real question is, Neil, what's the demand for the supply? Sort of, what's the standard of testing? Would you test only people who are very ill? Is that what you have got capacity for?
Would you test people who have got the sniffles? Do you have the capacity for that? Or do you have a much broader capacity to test almost anyone who comes in and says, I'm not feeling well? That is still a question. We don't exactly know what the testing capacity is vs. the demand at this point -- Neil.
CAVUTO: John Roberts at the White House, thank you very, very much.
Now let's take a peek at oil today.
It was still going down today, but not as freaky today as it was yesterday. We have two different contracts we want to show you here. Remember, these are traded in the futures markets. So, on the top of your screen there, you're looking at how things fared on the incoming and outgoing contracts.
That shows you that, no matter how you slice it, as they coalesced around $10 or $11 a barrel, you can remember, during the oil crises back some decades ago, it was well over $100 a barrel.
Now, this had been in the $40-$50 range, the break-even point, we were told, $35 to $40. But no matter how far out you go on some of these contracts, the betting seems to be that they see much lower oil prices, because the world economy has essentially -- has essentially stopped.
And there's some concern at the White House that they want to do something for energy companies, for the oil industry itself, maybe buy a lot of that oil to shore up support. There's a lot of it slopping around out there. They just don't know where to put it.
Now, Wyoming is one of the biggest states for oil in this country.
That state's governor joins me right now, Mark Gordon, the Wyoming governor, with us.
Governor, always good to have you.
The oil stuff, on top of the coronavirus stuff, was sort of like a double whammy for you guys to address. But more on the oil front, do you know what the president might be planning to do to support the industry, Governor? What have you heard?
GOV. MARK GORDON (R-WY): No, we have -- Neil, it's great to be on.
As you know, we have got a delegation that is unified in trying to make sure that this nation is energy-independent, that we have a strong oil sector.
The conversations I have had with the president have all indicated his support of the industry. As you have been alluding to, obviously, there's big challenges ahead.
For a place like Wyoming, we have a little bit of a differential to what you might see in Texas. I used to work for Apache oil company, and so I'm very familiar with let the challenges are. Cannot believe the collapse we have seen in the last four weeks.
CAVUTO: You know what's interesting, Governor? I do want to get into the coronavirus stuff with you, so I'm not being remiss here.
But we have so much oil sloshing around the world, they don't even know where to put it. I don't know where the status is with our own Strategic Petroleum Reserve. But I do know that a number of the options that oil firms and oil countries have out there, they have all dried up or they have run out of space.
You hear a lot of talk about this Vopak that has facilities around the world, in Rotterdam, all the way to Singapore, where there's there's no room. And I'm just wondering, if people did want to store it, where are they going to store it? It's tempting at these cheap prices, but where do you put it?
GORDON: Well, I think that's it.
There just isn't any additional capacity. And it's wonderful that we're talking about the Strategic Oil Reserve. That would be -- that would be a bit of a shot on the arm. But I don't think it's going to change.
It's really been demand destruction that has been the big problem. And I don't see -- talking to our producers here, both large and small, we're kind of anticipating a long haul on this.
The price yesterday, absolutely crazy. Wyoming had seen negative prices a few weeks before that. But these -- these are definitely very challenging time -- and problematic, I think, for the domestic industry.
CAVUTO: Yes. No, you're right about that.
And to your point, Governor, now, we were trading on negative price levels yesterday. That outgoing May contract, not to get too wonky about it, traded out today positive at around the $10-a-barrel range.
But having said that, all of this really goes back to the coronavirus, right, and the freeze worldwide as a result. And I know there's a rush to reopen the economy in waves, in various ways, your state, other states, but that, until that happens, until we see the economy getting a chance to percolate again, oil prices could go still further south.
Are you worried about that?
GORDON: Well, I always worry about that.
Yes, I was talking to one of my former colleagues the other day and saying, who would have ever thought that it was a relief to see oil go to 28 bucks. And that was -- back in 2016, you know we saw things come way down.
And now it feels like a reprieve to get up to $10 or $11. And that -- that's just not economic for most of our domestic production. And, again, it's affecting other parts of the -- of the economy, as you have mentioned.
And, for Wyoming, we're one of the largest energy producers, oil, natural gas. Natural gas has been on the floor for a while. Coal, that is struggling too.
CAVUTO: Yes.
You have not had nearly the serious coronavirus case dealings that other states have. I believe the most numbers I have, Governor, that 436 cases to date, six deaths. So, you haven't needed to taken some of the more draconian lockdown measures some of your colleagues have.
Does that mean that the measures, the tentative measures you did take can be unwound sooner? And can you update us what you plan to do?
GORDON: Sure, yes. Happy to do that. And thank you very much for that opportunity.
Eight of us Republican states all took the tack that, you know, our people understood common sense. You ask them do the right thing, they would do the right thing.
We calibrated that with Dr. Fauci. He came and said, you know, I think you're doing functionally the equivalent.
So we really feel like the people of Wyoming have stepped up. We do see a lot of variation around the state, some places a little bit more. Very sadly, today, we had four deaths in Indian country on the Wind River Reservation, something we had hoped never to see. But, sadly, I think it speaks to the insidiousness of this -- of this disease.
But to your point about, you know, what we're doing to relax, since we never really closed down, I have kept in close contact with all of our industries, just making sure that we had the work force capacity, and people were taking the precautions they needed to keep working.
They have kept working. And now we're looking at -- you may see my hair looks a little bit unkempt. We're looking at ways that we can maybe relax some of the requirements we have for barbers and beauty salons and others to sort of get people back working again in these pretty workaday kinds of professions that everybody depends on.
CAVUTO: Governor, given the limited measures you took, because the limited impact was there, you still encounter protesters who want to end all of this now.
But you're also dealing with many residents in your state -- and if national polls are accurate -- who are leery about rushing back, six out of 10 who feel very, very leery and are anxious about the coronavirus itself.
How do you balance that?
GORDON: Well, we have really tried to find that -- that sort of careful spot in between both extremes, relying a little bit on our counties where we have seen higher degrees, places like Teton County, where there's been a higher incidence, they have wanted to be a little more cautious, and other counties that don't have any cases whatsoever, where they have wanted to be a little more relaxed.
What we have decided to do -- and we will probably announce later this week -- is build a dashboard that the people of Wyoming can follow along with to see if we're seeing -- one of the big challenges -- and I know you talked about this earlier -- was testing capacity.
And despite what everybody says, we are limited on our -- on our testing capacity. We're working, just like every other state, to get adequate tests, adequate PPE. That's one of the measures that we're going to look at.
Another measure is how many ICU beds that we have available, what their capacity requirements are, the prevalence of non-traceable vs. community spread. Those things, put them out on a dashboard and indicate to people, look, we want to do the right thing here.
Nobody has figured out how to relax in a pandemic like this, so bear with us.
CAVUTO: Right. Right.
GORDON: We will keep you updated, and we will do the right thing.
CAVUTO: Governor Gordon, I have no doubt. You have a beautiful state, some great people. I'm sure it will all work out.
Good health. Just -- just hang in there, the governor of Wyoming, Governor Gordon.
We will be keeping track of that, other states that are also pondering what the governor is pondering, slowly, but surely getting -- getting back to work. How do you do that? How do you pull that off? If you're in the oil market, you get worried about it, because you can't wait a moment too soon to get this all going, but the fact of the matter is, oil prices have been collapsing.
And a lot of folks are saying, what comes next is a lot of the wildcatters and a lot of the smaller players, they go out of business. It's happened in the past, in the 1980s, when we had a similar tumult in oil prices.
But, back then, what transpired was, all of these guys driven out and a lot of the big oil companies eventually merging. That, by the way, was the impetus for Exxon and Mobil coming together.
Let's get to read from Stephen Schork, who is following this closely.
Stephen, it took a long time to recover from that '82-'83 experience, a full seven years before prices bounced back up. What's going to happen now? I know this is a totally different situation, but the same phenomenon.
STEPHEN SCHORK, EDITOR, THE SCHORK REPORT: Yes, of course, Neil. And the biggest known unknown out there is, when are we going to be reprieved from our house arrest? The economy, for all intents and purposes, is dead. So we're looking at a situation where the supply situation here in Cushing, where we have all our commercial stocks, is at or nearing capacity, and hence why we're still seeing the weakness in the front end of the curve.
If we look at the employment numbers, Neil, 22 million people unemployed in the last four weeks, that translates into 15 million people who are not driving to work, if they still have jobs, when the economy opens, will be commuting to work.
So we're looking at long-term demand destruction that's going to last for months, if not years ahead. So, unfortunately, I do believe we are looking at a systemic bear market that could signal prices lower for much longer than originally anticipated just four months ago -- four weeks ago.
CAVUTO: All right, Steve, I apologize for truncating this with a lot of breaking news.
But we are also watching in Washington right now, where they're working on that stimulus measure. A vote could come very soon in the Senate. Then it gets to the House.
That could change these dynamics and the stimulus and improved economy that a lot of people, like the oil people, want to see.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CAVUTO: All right, a lot of us have been streaming.
Netflix numbers are out,and they are off-the-charts big. They had almost 16 million more people streaming their servers vs. the eight million expected, earnings and revenues beating Street estimates by far. The stock is soaring, more than 5 percent in after-hours trading.
Now, you might recall issues like Netflix, Amazon were seen to be beneficiaries have this cocooning going on across the country.
This is something that's being addressed separately in Washington with a stimulus measure that will help everyone out while they are cocooning.
Chad Pergram on that measure right now, where they're trying to get things goosed a little bit with first about $240-$250 billion for small businesses, but some other add-ons to satisfy the Democrats.
Chad, where does this stand?
CHAD PERGRAM, FOX NEWS CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Neil, the price tag keeps going up. They're going to pass this in the Senate with a voice vote sometime in the next 20 or 30 minutes. The Senate is in session right now.
The total price tag is $484 billion. They're going to have a short debate and then pass this. And let me run you through some of the details here about what's actually in this package. Here's the breakdown; $322 billion would go towards small businesses. That fund bled dry at the end of last week.
Then there would be $60 billion allocated for economic disaster loans for businesses, $75 billion for hospitals, $25 billion for testing. The final issue in the bill was over testing, and they got that resolved.
Now, you know, Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer have been negotiating this. McConnell said just a few minutes ago that Republicans never wanted this crucial program for workers and small business to shut down. Remember, they ran out of money last week.
He said the Democrats let it lapse. They blocked it. Meantime, Democrats are returning fire. Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer just put out a joint statement, saying -- quote -- "Democrats flipped this emergency package from an insufficient Republican plan that left behind hospitals."
So, they will pass it today in the Senate sometime in the next 40 minutes. Then it's on to the House of Representatives on Thursday. They will actually take a regular roll call vote. And what they will probably have to do, Neil, is space people out as they go into the chamber into clumps of 20 or 30 members.
They're just not going to bring all members, all 429 members into the chamber. They will space them out, so they all vote. And we don't think we will have a full complement of House members on hand on Thursday.
It will probably be about 280, 300 members, and then it goes to President Trump -- Neil.
CAVUTO: Chad, thank you very, very much, Chad Pergram on that.
In the meantime, we're going to be hearing from West Virginia Democratic Senator Joe Manchin, where he stands on this and efforts even back in his state, where some are saying, open it up already, let's get back to business.
The protesters are out there. The senator is with us.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CAVUTO: All right, we understand they're still talking in there, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, the president of the United States.
They had their dust-ups and differences and a little tit-for-tat last week, but we're told that this was meant to be a very informal, friendly affair, exchanging ideas on how to deal with the coronavirus going forward.
Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia joining us right now.
Senator, I know you have had your one-on-ones with the president here. And you have had your differences with the president here. But how do you think it's going in there between the governor and the president?
SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): I would think -- I mean, we're all in this together, as we all know that, whether you're Democrat or Republican. This virus doesn't have any preference. It gets everybody.
So, we have got to come out of this together. And I would think the professionals that they are and they should be will come together and look and see how they best come forth.
New York is a very large economic engine for our country. It's Wall Street and all the different things that basically make -- make the financial markets stick. So we have got to make sure that that comes back also.
So, I think that Andrew Cuomo has done a good job. He's been out there every day. And the president, I understand, respects him for the job he's doing and also the challenge that he has in front of him.
So, I would think the two of them would get together. And they are both New Yorkers, so they sure do understand each other's language. That ought to work well.
CAVUTO: Senator, how do you think the president's been doing in handling this? It depends on the governor you talk to: He's been a great help. Others say, well, he could help more.
I guess it depends on the governor. What caused this rift between the governor and the president was, the governor intimating that there were some things he needed did get, some things he didn't get. But I guess it's to be expected.
But how do you think it's all going and how the president is doing?
MANCHIN: Well, I think, if you look at it from the standpoint what states are needing, being a former governor myself, there are certain things that we could do and certain things we just couldn't do without the leadership of the federal government stepping up.
And I think that's the thing. So, the president I would -- constructive criticism, if you will, you have got to take responsibility. Look, the buck does stop. It stops with us. If you're a governor, it stops there. If you're the president, it stops there.
But, together, you can come together and find our way forward. The most important thing you do when you become a leader is find out the vulnerabilities that you may have in your -- in our country, and every governor and every mayor. What vulnerabilities do your constituents have? Can you prevent them from any hardship?
And that's what you try to do. So, if you can do that, and always looking ahead, we can go back. History is going to basically tell us where the mistakes were made and what we learned from this.
The sad scenario is, if we don't change and don't learn from it because no one wants to take responsibility. So, I would think the president says, listen, we all can do better, OK? I could do better. You all can do better. We all can work better together.
So here's what we have learned from this. We can never let this happen again. Let's be prepared for the next one, because it will happen. And we know that. And it gives us a chance to reset, Neil, I think, manufacturing in America.
We have let a lot of things go offshore. And I have supported the president on clamping down on China and basically how China has taken advantage and really taken the manufacturing globally, as far as taking over globally manufacturing.
Now we need to bring back those necessities. We know, for our defense, we have to be able to manufacture and have steel and aluminum. And now we know, for the health and well-being of our citizens, we should be manufacturing medical devices and medicine that basically can heal us and keep us safe.
Those things should be brought back with the protective -- protection of the federal government.
CAVUTO: Senator, I had a chance to talk to your Republican governor yesterday. And West Virginia is among those states that might be ready sooner than others to slowly lift provisions and open up again.
Are you on board with that?
MANCHIN: Well, I mean, I'm cautiously on board with it. I want to make sure that we get back, but I want to make sure we get back safely.
I think the governor feels the same way, Governor Justice does, would feel the same way about that.
CAVUTO: OK.
MANCHIN: It might be pushed into something prematurely.
The main thing is, we don't have the testing. We have only tested a little over 20,000 people out of 1,800,000. Neil, we are a wonderful little state, beautiful people, hardworking people, that, basically, we don't have large metropolitan areas. The largest city we have is 50,000.
So, we're a state of cities and towns. And those towns and cities are hurting also. But, with that, if we're going to go back, I would think, if you're going back -- and I had some doctors I spoke to today, physical therapists -- they need to be tested.
They want to make sure all their co-workers are tested before they come back into a work environment. And, next of all, you have got to make sure testing is rampant, that we could use it as needed to make sure that we can identify any hot spots that should be shut down, or go back into basically cancellation, if you will, and making sure that we have separation, if needed.
But I think there's a proper way. I don't think it'll be a switch on/switch off back to full force. I think it'll be a rolling opening. We have a lot of rural states that probably could do so much quicker than some of our larger populated areas.
So, we will see how it works out. But I'm all for let's -- doing this in a very methodical way. Make sure we have the testing. I'm told now that we can do maybe 4,500 tests a day. I'm hoping that's accurate.
If that's the case, that's, what, 120,000 or 130,000 tests a month. That would be great if we could. Maybe we can stay on top of it. I haven't seen that yet. I'm hearing that's coming.
So, before they do anything, I hope that happens.
CAVUTO: All right.
MANCHIN: We have to be able to test and know where we are.
CAVUTO: So, more testing, more testing, no rush to reopen things just yet.
Senator Joe Manchin, thank you, sir. Very good catching up with you.
MANCHIN: Well, thank you, Neil. Thank you.
CAVUTO: All right, let's go to Matt Finn right now.
He's out in Chicago, where they have been dealing with a lot of these protests that are going on around the country about delaying or continuing these provisions, the sheltering and the like -- Matt.
MATT FINN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Neil, this afternoon, hundreds of protesters rallied outside of the capitol in Missouri. Many of them appeared not to be socially distanced or wearing a mask.
And now Americans in more than 25 states have protested their stay-at-home order, saying that they are just costing people their livelihoods.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason here is that the lockdown, it needs to end, and now. Studies are coming out that shows that millions of Americans have already had the coronavirus, gotten over it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we just feel that the stay-at-home order was painting with too broad of a brush. And, unfortunately, people are being harmed because of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FINN: This afternoon, Michigan's governor discussed health concerns that these shoulder-to-shoulder rallies bring, recalling what she saw at a very large rally at her state capitol last week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): We had a lot of people show up who were not wearing masks, who were not staying six feet apart.
I saw adults handing things to children barehanded. And we know that this kind of activity flies in the face of all of the best science, including the scientists that are standing up at the nightly briefing with the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FINN: Some governors have begun to release a timeline for their state's gradual reopening.
And the governor of Georgia is allowing many businesses to reopen this Friday -- Neil.
CAVUTO: You know, Matt, when you talk to these protesters and all, to a man or woman, they don't make a big deal of the social distancing thing.
I noticed it right away. And I see them in grounds, where they're separated oftentimes by inches, forget about feet. And I'm wondering whether they realize just how that looks.
FINN: There are some people perhaps on the extreme end that we have seen saying, we think we may have got it, we may have developed an antibody, or there's plenty of people that have and will survive, so we're not that concerned.
CAVUTO: All right.
FINN: Some people even saying, hey, if this is how I go, then this is how I'm going to go.
So there are people who are not taking any of these guidelines or advisories serious, Neil.
CAVUTO: Incredible. Just incredible.
All right, Matt Finn, thank you very, very much.
You mad at China? How about suing China?
After this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CAVUTO: We are streaming, and we are eating through all of this staying at home. Now Chipotle out with some numbers that blew away estimates, driving its digital sales up 81 percent.
So, we're watching Netflix and eating -- after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAVUTO: All right, it's the world piling up on China. And now so many are wondering what the country knew and when it knew it, and what the World Health Organization knew and when it knew it, that they really want to get to the bottom of it.
But the Chinese are not complying at this point. And it's led to sort of a -- well, a global rift.
Gillian Turner following it all from Washington.
Hey, Gillian
GILLIAN TURNER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Neil.
So the U.S. investigation into the origins of the virus in Wuhan is still ongoing. But our sources today tell us they don't yet have an estimate of when they're going to wrap up, when they're going to present their findings to the Trump administration.
Our sources are also telling us that, as of now, the White House has not given them a timing directive. They're allowing the intel process to kind of play out on its own.
Today, the national security adviser said one major problem is that China's government is still denying access to the key areas to health officials. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT O'BRIEN, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We need to get the CDC into China. There's really a huge burden on China to tell us where this came from.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TURNER: Now, the claim that China is blocking efforts by the U.S. to get eyes on the ground is echoing across the government, from the National Security Council to the intel community, even President Trump himself.
And as international pressure is continuing to mount for an expanded investigation led by a whole coalition of countries, China's government's now making it clear where they stand. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): China resolutely opposes any country or organization interfering in China's internal affairs, in China's judicial sovereignty under any pretext.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TURNER: Neil, a word on Kim Jong-un, lots of reports about his health today.
Our official sources are not confirming that he is incapacitated, as other outlets have done. But we did manage to confirm that the U.S. government has pretty extensive contingency plans in place in the eventuality of a Kim Jong-un death, what that would look like for North Korea, what the U.S. would do, what other countries around the world would do -- Neil.
CAVUTO: Because the North Koreans haven't said anything about it. Right? I mean, we're just going on speculation, right?
TURNER: Yes, so far, no confirmation from North Korea, which is very unsurprising.
CAVUTO: Right.
TURNER: This story broke last night with reporting from a South Korean news agency, but U.S. officials are not saying -- they know and admit that he's been in poor health for a while. He has cardio problems.
But they're not confirming anything. They're not certain right now about what his current condition is, Neil.
CAVUTO: All right, thank you very much, Gillian Turner in Washington.
Back to this whole China thing, and whether they're hiding stuff from us, whether you can believe any of the counts and cases they're giving, or the fact that only a few thousand died, when, in this country, it's a multiple of that, many, many times. Does it make sense?
So a lot of people are starting to say, it started there, they hid some stuff from there, it's time to sue from here.
Well, that might be easier said than done.
Judge Andrew Napolitano with us on that.
There are some sketchy precedents for this. But it's a tough one, right, Judge?
ANDREW NAPOLITANO, FOX NEWS SENIOR JUDICIAL ANALYST: Well, it's nearly impossible right now, because of the Sovereign Immunity Act, which prevents federal courts in America from hearing cases against sovereign countries.
So, theoretically, if someone wanted to sue China today, before any amendment to that act, they'd have to go to China, to Beijing, and sue in a Chinese court. Good luck.
As you know, because you have reported this, there are members of the Senate who are offering legislation which would amend the Sovereign Immunity Act to allow Americans to sue the Chinese government or the Chinese Communist Party for a deception of such a magnitude that it caused horrific human death here in federal courts.
I don't think that works either, because the federal courts are not capable of determining exactly how this spread and who caused it to happen and who lied and who deceived it about -- deceived us about it.
The flip side of this is that the Sovereign Immunity Act is bilateral, meaning it prevents Chinese people from suing the American government in Chinese courts, which, of course, is the last thing we want, because they own so many of our assets.
CAVUTO: You know, you just think of where you have cases of terrorist acts, the downing a Pan Am Flight 103 comes to mind and all, where you could trace it to a country and sue that country.
And then you would have to question the leaders of that country to make it happen. We're a long way from that here, aren't we?
NAPOLITANO: We are a long way from that. It would require amending a lot of statutes.
CAVUTO: Right.
NAPOLITANO: I mean, terrorism requires two or more acts of violence intended to change the policy of the government. So, they'd have to redefine terrorism and redefine a lot of laws.
But the courts will probably say, this is not justiciable, meaning it is not for the judicial branch to resolve. It's for the executive branch to resolve through politics or diplomacy or economics or even military, but there's nothing the courts can do about it.
I don't blame these members of Congress for exploring this, because they represent people who are furious at what happened.
CAVUTO: Right.
NAPOLITANO: And Gillian's report is really just the tip of the iceberg as to what probably happened.
And when we learn what truly happened, people will be livid. But because of our economic and political relationships with China, right now, there's very little that anybody, other than the president, can do about it.
CAVUTO: All right, Judge, thank you very much. Good catching up with you, my friend.
We're still watching at the White House right now, where the president and the governor of New York are still meeting. They have pushed back that health care task force briefing to 5:30 p.m., a little less than an hour from now. So we might get an update from that then, but outside of that and seeing the governor or seeing anything else, so far, not.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CAVUTO: All right, I want to correct something I said earlier.
That meeting has wrapped up now between the president and Governor Cuomo. It actually wrapped up about 10 minutes ago, I understand. There was no photo availability or no post-tape that became available.
The governor left. We're told it was an amicable discussion. That's about all we know. So, I apologize for that confusion.
But all of this occurs the same hour that we're learning right now the United States has surpassed 800,000 coronavirus cases as of this hour, in New York, by the way, 257,125 cases by far, the heaviest number of cases in New York. New Jersey is a distance second at about 88,806.
But, again, these -- just the sheer number of cases, and the rate of increase, while coming down, is still going up. And that's something we watch very, very closely.
And that is among the reasons why we have this measure being voted on in the United States Senate, soon to go to the House, that will call for still more backup to help those affected by this shutdown that's been going on throughout much of the country.
This is that $484 billion measure, in the Senate, expected to easily get past that, and then in the House. But already we have seen a bipartisanship agreement, where all the key players, including Nancy Pelosi and Republican leaders, are saying, this is all but a done deal.
Mike Emanuel has been following the drama on Capitol Hill and updates us right now.
Hey, Mike.
MIKE EMANUEL, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Neil, good afternoon.
Yes, once there's an agreement between those key players on Capitol Hill and sign-off from the White House, things tend to move rather quickly on Capitol Hill. It's rare. A lot of times, there's plenty of bickering. And they certainly did their share of bickering over recent days.
But they have come together. You had initially the Republicans saying they just wanted to extend that small business program known as the Paycheck Protection Program that had run out of cash. Democrats said, there are other priorities that they wanted to include.
So they're going to get $25 billion more for testing. That is something that we know that Andrew Cuomo, the governor of New York, is speaking with the president of the United States about this afternoon, just wrapped up short time ago, but a lot of concerns about testing.
How do you reopen the economy without more vigorous testing? And so that's part of the package. All indications are, the Senate should act in the next few minutes, pass this measure.
And then we know a lot of House lawmakers are in the process of traveling from their respective districts back to Capitol Hill to have at least a quorum for a vote on Thursday morning. It's expected to pass there, with the sign-off of the relevant leaders in the House, but they have to have at least a quorum of 216 or so members around to pass it and send it on to the president for his signature -- Neil.
CAVUTO: You know, Mike, a dumb question my part, but you're used to them.
And one is that this testing that's included in the legislation, Governor Cuomo had argued, I believe, last week at this time that that is a federal government responsibility. He later acquiesced on that to say he was wrong, that it's a state responsibility.
Now, if it's included in this legislation, in other words, to help states with more testing, I guess it becomes a moot point, doesn't it?
EMANUEL: Yes.
My understanding was that part of the reason the governor wanted to come speak face to face with the president, rather than talking past one another in media appearances, was to essentially sort out, what is the federal government going to commit to doing in terms of greater testing, and what should governors focus on to do in terms of greater testing?
Obviously, it's in the president's interest to reopen New York, a key driver of the American economy. But, as you know, in the New York City area, people live on top of one another, very closely together.
CAVUTO: Right.
EMANUEL: And so there are a lot of people who feel like, you can't open mass transit, which is critical in New York City and the surrounding areas, without knowing whether people have been tested and whether they are clear or whether they may be carrying coronavirus.
Imagine coronavirus spreading around New York City subway trains. And so, obviously, they're not there yet. And so the governor wanted to sort out with the president, what's the state's responsibility, what's the fed's responsibility? We should get more from the president when he comes out and does his daily briefing a little later, Neil.
CAVUTO: All right, Mike Emanuel, thank you very much.
We might get a read on that after this.
EMANUEL: You bet.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAVUTO: All right, we interrupt this sure stimulus thing for a no from Senator Rand Paul.
He is addressing the Senate right now, or talking about how he cannot vote for it. He's opposed to it. He says that we should quit printing bailout cash, Rand Paul.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): ... only comes when the quarantine is ended.
Now, experts will disagree on the exact date that we should reopen the economy, but sane, rational counsel should continue to push for the quickest end possible.
Opining about never shaking hands again is a recipe for keeping the economy closed until no one dies from infectious disease. Well, the infectious disease experts should be queried. So too should economists.
We should seek counsel about balancing the harm to health caused by disease with the harm to health caused by enforcing dysfunction on the economy, not easy decisions.
Perhaps most importantly, leaders in each state must weigh in on the problem. New York City's open date will be different than Fargo, North Dakota. We need to get past a one-size-fits-all approach to infectious disease.
Realize that most of this money that's being loaned to small business is not a loan. Most of this money will not be repaid. It will ultimately be considered grants and will be added to our national debt. Let's be honest about this.
Applications for the program opened to overwhelming initial demand. The current data indicates that the money's gone. So now here we are again with leadership from both parties saying, let's do another $300 billion. What's another couple hundred billion?
But realize the money desired is not money that we have saved for a rainy day. This money doesn't exist anywhere. It will be created or borrowed.
Even more alarming than the money is the idea that one senator can stand on the floor and pass legislation spending a half-a-trillion dollars and have no recorded vote and no debate.
Look, I understand the hardships of senators returning from around the country. So I have not invoked the Senate rules to demand a recorded vote. I did return today, though, so that history will record that not everyone gave in to the massive debt Congress is creating.
My hope is that, across the country, there will remain a vibrant voice for limited government, for our constitutional republic. I don't want to see this massive...
CAVUTO: All right, that is Senator Rand Paul right now. He is opposing this nearly half-trillion-dollar coronavirus bill that is just keeping the cash spigot going here, and says that we have got to watch out what's happening on the debt.
We have spent trillions of dollars thus far. Why this is the ending point, we shall see.
Let's go to John Roberts at the White House on where this goes.
John, I don't think it's going to get in the way of getting this thing through.
ROBERTS: no.
CAVUTO: But it now kind of a seminal moment. What do you make of it?
ROBERTS: You know, they have got the votes to do it. And Rand Paul gets to stand up there and espouse his principles, and still the PPP will go out and there will be another $310 billion or so of that.
The coronavirus briefing this afternoon, just a little more than half-an- hour from now, we expect the president will probably give his side of the meeting that he had with New York Governor Andrew Cuomo a little while ago.
Cuomo was on another network talking about it. Sounded like the two of them had a good conversation. Cuomo was talking about the importance of federal involvement in getting testing supplies out to the states, that there needs to be a robust partnership in doing that.
Apparently, the president asked Cuomo how things were going in New York, how some of the treatments were working. So it sounds like, Neil, I would expect when the president comes out for the coronavirus briefing and starts talking about that, he will probably talk about Cuomo, who he has been at odds with many times in the past, in a probably very, I don't want to say glowing terms, but I think probably very cordial terms, and this idea that Cuomo is the governor of his home state.
So I'm sure you're President Trump wants to see things go well in New York City. And even though they have had disagreements in the past over who needs to do what, and President Trump told Cuomo to stop talking, and Cuomo told President Trump to get off the couch, stop watching TV, and get to work, I think they had a pretty good meeting today, at least by Cuomo's account.
We will get the president's account soon -- Neil.
CAVUTO: Who decides at the White House if they don't want to have like a delayed tape or one of those tape-backed moments? I mean, that's the president's call, right?
ROBERTS: There's one person who makes all of those decisions, and he lives right there.
(LAUGHTER)
CAVUTO: I got that.
Real quickly, John, on the stimulus that's being voted on that Rand Paul dislikes, there is a portion carved out there to provide governors help in getting these tests, something that Governor Cuomo wanted.
It is a federal responsibility. He said he was corrected when it wasn't. But he got what he wanted, right?
ROBERTS: Yes, and I think not just New York state, but other states did as well.
CAVUTO: Right.
ROBERTS: And the federal role here is in making sure that the national suppliers have the equipment necessary to go out to the states, things like testing swabs, like specimen test tubes, like reagent that comes from certain manufacturers, so you can do those PCR tests.
Those are the things that the states want the federal government to supply. But President Trump is still firm in saying, look, the federal government doesn't stand on street corners sticking swabs up people's noses. That's the states' job to do.
And Vice President Mike Pence had a conversation with the nation's 50 governors yesterday, saying, here's all the testing capacity you have in your states. You need to know where it is. You need to learn how to use it.
CAVUTO: All right, John Roberts, thank you very, very much, my friend, John Roberts at the White House.
He will be at that briefing in about a half-an-hour.
That will do it for us.
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